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thwap
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4564
Location: Hamilton
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 Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| anne cameron wrote: | they say he "may" have hit a car....
on the other hand, he may NOT have hit a car!!! |
Only history will judge that incident. [non-incident?]
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Man! I hate them fancy-lads! |
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bshmr
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 4004
Location: Central USA, Earth
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| To Tazer or Shoot someone who is 'driving' a motor vehicle is to un-leash the potential lethal weapon or vehicle on the surroundings. If the engine is running, problems are likely. |
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:07 am Post subject: |
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Cocaine, not tazer-wielding Calgary cops killed man, investigation finds; family not happy with finding
| Quote: | Calgary police are not responsible for the death of a man in custody because cocaine use, not a jolt from a Taser, ultimately killed him, Alberta investigators have concluded.
Gordon Walker Bowe, a 30-year-old resident of Castlegar, B.C., and father of two, died a day after he was arrested in Calgary last Nov. 1.
The Alberta Serious Incident Response Team (ASIRT), which investigates any use of force by police that results in serious injury or death, announced Thursday that while a Taser was fired during the arrest, Bowe had "life-threatening levels of cocaine in his body."
"The Taser did not play a role in relation to the death of Gordon Bowe. Rather, the tragedy of his death was as a result of excited delirium due to the ingestion of cocaine," ASIRT executive director Clifton Purvis said, citing the medical examiner’s report.
[...]
Bowe’s family isn’t satisfied with the results of the investigation and is considering filing complaints against the four officers who arrested him.
"This [ASIRT] body, in all appearances to us, is set up to be another roadblock to get at the truth,” said John Chernenkoff, Bowe’s father-in-law. |
Any time I see them using that "excited delirium" bullshit, I smell a rat.
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"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin |
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Rufus Polson
Purple Library Guy
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 3483
Location: SFU and/or the college of Riddlemastery at Caithnard
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:51 am Post subject: |
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Yeah. Looking at the article, we see all the usual stuff they say--it didn't work so they had to do it some more, he struggled like crazy, was behaving weirdly yadda yadda yadda.
Since nobody was taping them, none of it can be checked, which means that we have no useful evidence whatsoever about what happened other than some tazers got discharged. Cops talking about what they did and didn't do and what suspects did or didn't do is non-information; we know they'd lie if that would make them look better.
There may have been cocaine in this guy's bloodstream, but if the people making that finding are talking about "excited delirium" I wouldn't put money on even that being accurate, much less the judgment that the cocaine level was "life-threatening". |
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bshmr
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 4004
Location: Central USA, Earth
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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The more familiar I become with 'excited delirium', the more I become convinced that 'it' applies to the users of Tasers, instead of those Tased. Confusion results because the 'self-defense' principle isn't clear.
So, beware the 'cop' making apparent random acts in response to something invisible. It may be that adapting how the 'cops' describe their world is the safest view -- "Every one of 'them' is (potentially) lethal or is at least dangerous, and stupid." |
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Tehanu
More or less, more or less
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 17638
Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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| Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Yay, Taser International, you just confirmed what fabulous corporate citizens you are.
They're planning on filing suit about the Braidwood inquiry findings. Funny, because I think they got off lightly in the first part of the inquiry, and I doubt that'll change much when the second part is brought down.
| Quote: | Taser International is preparing to mount a legal challenge against the findings of a B.C. inquiry looking into the use of stun guns in the province, according to a media report Thursday night.
... A Vancouver lawyer for Arizona-based Taser International told CTV on Thursday the company will ask a court to quash many of the 19 recommendations made by former B.C. Appeal Court justice Thomas Braidwood in his preliminary report last month.
"The commission breached basic principles of fairness and fundamental justice … both in its procedure and in the manner in which the report and its conclusions were reached," lawyer David Neave said in the CTV report.
CTV said it has obtained legal documents in which Taser International alleges the inquiry neglected to enter scientific and medical evidence brought forward by the company, and made its recommendations based on incomplete information.
In his preliminary report, Braidwood concluded that stun guns can be deadly and suggested much tougher rules be adopted if they are to remain an option for police.
... Liberal MP Ujjal Dosanjh said Taser is merely using the lawsuit to intimidate its critics and protect its profits. |
CBC. |
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anne cameron
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 3078
Location: tahsis, british columbia
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| Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Ujjal Dosangh to the rescue...Hi Ho Ujaal, Awaaaaaaaaaaaay....!! |
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Tehanu
More or less, more or less
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 17638
Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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More questions about the RCMP officer testimony at the Braidwood inquiry. It appears that although they said that after they were reassigned to different duties, they had no further contact with each other, they may have ... misrepresented ... that claim.
| Quote: | ... The officers were all transferred to separate duties weeks later, and at the Braidwood Inquiry into the death of the would-be immigrant from Poland, they testified they never had contact with each other.
An RCMP email obtained in a freedom of information request by CBC News could suggest otherwise, according to two lawyers involved.
One of the officers, Cpl. Monty Robinson, was unequivocal at the inquiry about his connection to the other officers present when Robert Dziekanski died.
"It's your testimony that you have never had conversations with these officers regarding the incident," Robinson was asked by Don Rosenbloom, a lawyer for the government of Poland.
"No," Robinson said.
In an email exchange in August, 2008 — months before the officers testimony at the inquiry — RCMP Supt. Mike Aubry asked staff relations representative Mike Ingles if the officers had any "issues" with appearing at the inquiry.
In his reply, Ingles said he had spoken to someone — whose name is blanked out in the copy of the email given to the CBC — and that "he will be discussing it with the others."
Such conversations would not be remarkable, except that the officers insisted none took place, said B.C. Civil Liberties Association president Rob Holmes. |
CBC. |
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:43 am Post subject: |
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Oh. Mi. Gawd!
Somebody alert Magoo!
_________________
"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:30 am Post subject: |
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Of course, their misrepresentations were all in good faith and intended to advance the public good.
_________________
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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"Taser Time" -- Police Women of Broward County takes reality cop TV to new depths
| Quote: | Radley Balko's crime column for Reason Online this week "criticizes the thinly-veiled S&M fantasy/cop reality show, The Police Women of Broward County."
| Quote: | The most obvious criticism of these shows is their exploitation and general tackiness. Police work is reduced to clownish pranks, adrenalin-inducing raids, and telegenic lady cops edited to invoke S&M fantasies for the shlubs watching at home. No one expects much dignity from cable networks, but you'd think, for example, that the Broward County Sheriff's Department might object to the sexualization of its female officers, or to a national ad campaign insinuating that they're sporting itchy Taser fingers.
As for the SWAT programs, America has unfortunately grown comfortable with, or at least accustomed to, the idea of using SWAT teams to kick down doors and conduct volatile, confrontational raids for consensual, nonviolent crimes. We've seen a massive increase in these raids, from about 3,000 per year in the early 1980s to some 50,000 per year by the early 2000s. The popularity of SWAT shows didn't cause the problem, but their popularity is sympomatic of it, and they can only further ingrain the troubling notion that there's nothing wrong with sending a unit of cops dressed like soldiers into private homes to arrest nonviolent drug offenders. And of course, we're never going to see the wrong-door raids, or police mistakes that result in fatalities. |
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"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin |
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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Braidwood Inquiry resumes today... hopefully with some *pointed* questions about e-mails sent by RCMP Chief Supt. Dick Bent
| Quote: | The inquiry into the death of Robert Dziekanski is resuming following a three-month delay to allow the contents of an internal RCMP email to be examined.
[...]
The November 2007 email, from RCMP Chief Supt. Dick Bent to assistant commissioner Al McIntyre, suggests that the four Mounties who responded to a call at the airport had discussed, before they arrived, a plan to use a Taser against the Polish immigrant. The officers testified in the spring that they didn't have a prior plan to use the electrical stun gun on Dziekanski.
"Finally, spoke to Wayne and he indicated that the members did not articulate that they saw the symptoms of excited delirium, but instead had discussed the response en route and decided that if he did not comply that they would go to CEW," the email states.
[...]
[Inquiry lawyer Art] Vertlieb has acknowledged the comments on the email were clearly hearsay, but that they must be investigated because they came from senior RCMP officers, and "on its face, the email appears to tell a significantly different story."
The three RCMP officials cited in the email will be called during the three days of hearings and are expected to tell the inquiry that the email was the result of a misunderstanding.
The four RCMP officers who were at the airport have already appeared before the inquiry, and are not scheduled to appear again.
[...]
Crown prosecutors have decided not to charge Bentley, Const. Gerry Rundel, Const. Kwesi Millington and Cpl. Benjamin Robinson in Dziekanski's death.
"Based on the assessment of evidence I've seen to date, I haven't seen much else, the only thing that has to be explained is why does a person who is in command write that kind of an email," Kosteckyj told The Canadian Press. "When I take a look at how quickly it (the Taser) was used, I have a hard time believing that it wasn't discussed."
Vertlieb said the final arguments will likely be concluded by mid-October. |
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"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin |
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Tehanu
More or less, more or less
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 17638
Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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| Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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Poland's ambassador writes to Braidwood.
| Quote: | Poland remains disappointed that no criminal charges were laid against four Mounties who tasered Robert Dziekanski, suggesting video footage of the 2007 incident encourages an instinctive reaction that “wrong-doers be made accountable through criminal prosecution.”
... In a letter read Monday to inquiry head Thomas Braidwood by Poland's Vancouver-based lawyer Don Rosenbloom, Piotr Ogrodzinski writes that the Polish government is optimistic about the eventual inquiry report.
“We are confident that your findings and recommendations will contribute significantly, both domestically and internationally, to understanding how a fairly minor event can escalate to such a tragic end,” says the letter.
... The inquiry Monday began hearing closing arguments from 15 lawyers, who have been representing the interests of parties ranging from the four Mounties to the Canadian government to Mr. Dziekanski's mother, Zofia Cisowski of Kamloops.
... Poland's top civil-rights watchdog appears to have taken a harder line than the Polish government on the case.
A spokesman for Janusz Kochanowski, Poland's commissioner for civil-rights protection, recently told The Globe and Mail that the commissioner is intent on exploring options for the prosecution of the officers subject to Mr. Braidwood's conclusions. |
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:51 am Post subject: |
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I'd LOVE it if Braidwood wrote to the four killer cops in his findings, "Have you no sense of decency, officers, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?"
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"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin |
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Tehanu
More or less, more or less
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 17638
Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:56 am Post subject: |
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Kwesi Millington's lawyer says that his client was justified in hitting Dziehanski five times with a Taser. Oh? Also, we shouldn't apparently take the video at face value. Oh?
| Quote: | ... In his final submission to the inquiry, Ravi Hira said Const. Kwesi Millington was justified both when he used the Taser after Dziekanski picked up a stapler, and when he pulled the trigger four more times as the Polish immigrant screamed and writhed on the airport floor.
"In his dealings with Mr. Dziekanski, Const. Millington acted in accordance with his training," said Hira.
"Const. Millington acted appropriately and did not misconduct himself in any way."
... He said Millington calmly approached Dziekanski and used hand signals in an attempt to calm him down and ask for identification, but without success.
Then, Dziekanski picked up a stapler.
"Const. Millington perceived the male intended to attack, and perceived his behaviour as combative — this was a reasonable perception," said Hira.
"Const. Millington perceived the male was a threat to the officers and deployed the Taser."
... The lawyer said Dziekanski was fighting back as officers tried to subdue him.
"He perceived that the male was kicking, fighting and struggling with the officers," said Hira.
... "Some caution ought to be applied with regard to the use of the video and not, as suggested, that that is the end of it all," he said. |
CBC. |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:00 am Post subject: |
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Hand signals? How the hell do you sign give me your ID or I shoot you?
_________________
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:14 am Post subject: |
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[quibble] | Quote: | | "... did not misconduct himself in any way." |
WTF?! "misconduct" is a verb, now?!  [/quibble]
_________________
"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| Hephaestion wrote: | [quibble] | Quote: | | "... did not misconduct himself in any way." |
WTF?! "misconduct" is a verb, now?! [/quibble] |
Well, it is defined as a verb in a number of dictionaries, including the Ninth Edition of the Concise Oxford English Dictionary published in 1995.
_________________
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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Tehanu
More or less, more or less
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 17638
Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:56 am Post subject: |
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It still sounds stoopid. That jumped out at me too. What's wrong with saying: "my client didn't do anything wrong"?
Oh, wait, maybe because "misconduct himself" means something like "yes, yes, my client killed a guy, but Nuremburg and all that notwithstanding, he was following orders a.k.a. protocol." |
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Rufus Polson
Purple Library Guy
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 3483
Location: SFU and/or the college of Riddlemastery at Caithnard
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Hephaestion wrote: | [quibble] | Quote: | | "... did not misconduct himself in any way." |
WTF?! "misconduct" is a verb, now?! [/quibble] |
It means he played the tune properly, giving himself no wrong cues about tempo, note duration etc. |
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Rufus Polson
Purple Library Guy
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 3483
Location: SFU and/or the college of Riddlemastery at Caithnard
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Tehanu wrote: | | Kwesi Millington's lawyer says that his client was justified in hitting Dziehanski five times with a Taser. Oh? Also, we shouldn't apparently take the video at face value. Oh? |
It really seems like it came down to "Who are you going to believe? Them, or your lying eyes?" |
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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RCMP told not to aim Taser guns at the chest
| Quote: | In a new approach aimed at reducing deaths caused by stun guns, Canadian police forces are being ordered to take new precautions with Taser guns by no longer aiming the weapon at a person's chest and heart.
Police authorities have been told that their Tasers must now only point at a person's abdomen, legs or back if they want to subdue the suspect.
The Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the Ontario Provincial Police and other municipal and provincial forces were issued the directive late last week after Taser International made mention of new concerns about the weapons and its links to cardiac arrest.
The organization said reducing chest shots will avoid the controversy about whether the electronic control devices affect the human heart.
"The risk of an adverse cardiac event" related to Taser use is "deemed to be extremely low," the Taser International bulletin said. However, it notes that underlying problems that affect the heart -- such as drug use or other cardiac problems -- are impossible for officers to diagnose on the spot.
RCMP Staff Sgt. Scott Warren, who is part of the officer safety committee, told the Canadian Press that the new orders are a major shift from previous police practices. |
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"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin |
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Rufus Polson
Purple Library Guy
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 3483
Location: SFU and/or the college of Riddlemastery at Caithnard
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| That's one of the stupidest things I ever heard. |
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Cartman
Beyond cuddly
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8635
Location: OMG! They killed Jason Kenney!
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| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| Rufus Polson wrote: | | That's one of the stupidest things I ever heard. |
Meh, I think this is stupiderer.
| Quote: | The maker of the Taser stun gun says the device did not cause the death two years ago of Polish immigrant Robert Dziekanski.
...
It says there is no objective evidence the struggle with the four RCMP officers caused Dziekanski's death, and pinning it on use of the Taser is simply speculative. |
What exactly is objective evidence? Maybe they should line up 100 Taser employees and see how many die after being shot in the chest. |
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Feral
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 890
Location: In a tree... very high up.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:54 am Post subject: |
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There's a thought. Though... in order to be meaningful the results of such a test would have to be consistently repeatable. Considering the amount of controversy that seems to perpetually surround this issue, I'd recommend extensive testing of the hypothesis... exhaustive testing even.
Yeah.
I mean... it's not like it's self-evident or anything. We wouldn't want to do something rash like speculate. |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| Cartman wrote: | | Rufus Polson wrote: | | That's one of the stupidest things I ever heard. |
Meh, I think this is stupiderer.
| Quote: | The maker of the Taser stun gun says the device did not cause the death two years ago of Polish immigrant Robert Dziekanski.
...
It says there is no objective evidence the struggle with the four RCMP officers caused Dziekanski's death, and pinning it on use of the Taser is simply speculative. |
What exactly is objective evidence? Maybe they should line up 100 Taser employees and see how many die after being shot in the chest. |
Now now. I'm sure many a poor schmo works at Taser because it was a job they could get. Let's try your test with 100 Taster executives. Then we'll see how confident they are in the Taser's non-lethality.
_________________
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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Feral
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 890
Location: In a tree... very high up.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| TS. wrote: | | Then we'll see how confident they are in the Taser's non-lethality. |
We might just... not that this would be useful information, or even especially interesting. As I understand it, the proposal is to obtain objective evidence of the lethality of being shot in the chest with a taser. Lethality... that you can measure. It's easy: you just count corpses. Seeing how confident they are... way too subjective for me.
Besides, I know just oodles of people who are quite confident about any number of notions that are demonstrably false. I know a woman who is confident that cold drafts on feet while menstruating causes influenza... and that wearing heavy wool stockings is a sovereign preventative of influenza. She's confident, but also wrong (and I dare say dangerously misinformed).
But sure... Taser executives. I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't be suitable. But... the results have to be repeatable. |
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
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Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Feral wrote: | | But... the results have to be repeatable. |
We can keep going until Taser runs out of executives, if that's what it takes. The demands of Science, and all that...
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"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Hephaestion wrote: | | Feral wrote: | | But... the results have to be repeatable. |
We can keep going until Taser runs out of executives, if that's what it takes. The demands of Science, and all that... |
Quite so.
_________________
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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Raos
volatilis vir
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5472
Location: Petropolis
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| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Not that I would ever condone such malicious ideas, even in jest, but for such a theoretical study to really be rigorous, the conditions have to be representative of the real conditions under which tazers are used. Now we know conditions have included having been stranded in an airport in a foreign country for hours, having just fallen off a bridge and broken your back, being in the hospital on oxygen, and being twitching on the floor following an immediately previous shot from a tazer.
Now I'm not suggesting, even in jest, that anybody should subject tazer executives to any of those conditions by any means, but I am saying that scientific validity is always very important, and demands appropriate study conditions to satisfy such demands of validity.
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thwap
Fulltime enMasse Member
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Posts: 4564
Location: Hamilton
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| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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I bet that Taser International executives would be more than happy to subject themselves to such scientifically rigorous tests, if it will help to clear the air, once and for all, about the alleged dangers of their fine product.
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Man! I hate them fancy-lads! |
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| Hephaestion wrote: | | I'd LOVE it if Braidwood wrote to the four killer cops in his findings, "Have you no sense of decency, officers, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?" |
Not that this excuses what these four Mounties did, but I think it's important to remember that many police officers don't actively abuse their authority and that policing itself is a difficult job. I wonder if the RCMP cares that the actions of these officers combined with its refusal to take responsibility makes the job that much harder. Is it a coincidence that police agencies are having recruitment problems when public opinion of the police is declining?
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This is pre-eminently the time, to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself-Franklin Delano Roosevelt |
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
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Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Ottawa spends more than half a million to defend RCMP, officers at Taser inquiry
| Quote: | The federal government spent more than half a million dollars defending the RCMP and the actions of the four officers who stunned Robert Dziekanski with a Taser at Vancouver's airport.
The force and each of the four officers had lawyers at the public inquiry into Dziekanski's death, which began in January and finished with closing submissions last week.
[...]
The Justice Department had billed the RCMP more than $373,000 in legal fees to represent the force at the inquiry as of July 31, according to documents obtained under federal access to information laws.
Lawyers for the officers had together cost about $200,000 by the end of August, according to the documents.
Those figures were tallied during a three-month summer break, which was ordered in June to investigate an internal RCMP email that raised questions about the officers' testimony. Since then, there have been several days of hearings in September and final submissions this month.
And lawyers for three of the officers are heading to the B.C. Court of Appeal in December to challenge the inquiry's authority to make findings of misconduct against them.
The RCMP and the four Mounties were named in a lawsuit filed by Dziekanski's mother last week, although it's not clear who will pay the officers' legal fees in that case.
[...]
Walter Kosteckyj, who represents Dziekanski's mother at the inquiry and in her recently filed lawsuit, said regardless of his criticisms of the officers, it's important to ensure they've been adequately represented at the hearings.
"I would be a hypocrite to say they're not entitled to be properly defended," Kosteckyj said in a recent interview. "And no one can say they didn't get the best legal help necessary, no one can come back and say these guys were railroaded or weren't treated fairly. That's important to the process."
[...]
By August, the provincial government had spent $3.99 million since the first phase began, said Leo Perra, executive director for the commission. That total could increase by another million by the time the commission's work is finished, he said.
Perra said most of that cost goes to salaries, including Braidwood - who is paid about $1,700 a day - the inquiry's own lawyers and support staff. That money also pays for facility costs.
"Commissions of inquiry aren't particularly provided with a budget, because nobody knows where they're going and exactly what's going to happen," said Perra. |
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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Inquiry resumes with focus on mentally ill man's final hours after Tasering
| Quote: | An inquiry that resumes Monday into the death of a mentally ill man who was repeatedly Tasered by Halifax police will turn to the final hours of his life and the central question of why he didn't receive a doctor-ordered psychiatric assessment, a lawyer for the man's family says.
Kevin MacDonald said the hearing into the 2007 death of Howard Hyde will look at how the 45-year-old paranoid schizophrenic was treated by the court system and guards at a correctional facility where he died 30 hours after police stunned him up to five times.
[...]
A key element of the probe is an instruction given by an emergency room physician who treated Hyde after he lapsed into unconsciousness and stopped breathing soon after police restrained him during a violent struggle at the police station.
Dr. Janet MacIntyre testified that she had filled out a health information form before Hyde was released from the hospital into police custody, indicating he was to be brought back to the hospital if a forensic psychiatric exam wasn't ordered by a judge.
MacIntyre said she would not have discharged him had she known he would be sent to a jail cell rather than a psychiatric hospital following his arrest on Nov. 21, 2007, for alleging assaulting his common-law spouse. MacIntyre testified that a police officer told her he was confident Hyde would get a court-ordered assessment once he appeared before a judge later that day.
[...]
But the rookie officer who spoke to MacIntyre testified that he didn't have a good grasp of the court process.
MacIntyre said she could have kept Hyde at the hospital for an in-house assessment, but police expressed some "urgency" about the court appearance. Another emergency room doctor testified he told the RCMP that Halifax police were "gung-ho" to get Hyde out of the hospital and into a courtroom.
The deputy sheriffs escorting Hyde to court did not hand the health form to lawyers handling the case because legislation at the time forbade them from sharing such information with anyone but health-care providers. In the end, the judge presiding over the arraignment did not order a psychiatric assessment and Hyde was sent to the correctional facility. |
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Rufus Polson
Purple Library Guy
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 3483
Location: SFU and/or the college of Riddlemastery at Caithnard
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | A coroner listed the cause of death as excited delirium stemming from paranoid schizophrenia. |
WTF!? Shouldn't the coroner have some sanctions to deal with, for giving a nonexistent condition as cause of death? |
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bshmr
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 4004
Location: Central USA, Earth
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, now we know what 'excited delirium' is, "needing or having died of electrocution (via taser)"! The coroner simplified down to the essence. |
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Tehanu
More or less, more or less
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 17638
Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:30 am Post subject: |
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Compare and contrast. Paul Pritchard, the guy who shot the video of Robert Dziekanski getting killed says he has struggled with feeling guilty, since he feels he might have averted it by talking with him, or intervening. The RCMP -- who actually killed the guy -- haven't said anything like that.
Pritchard has just won a citizen journalist award.
| Quote: | ... The incident might never have received much attention if Paul Pritchard had not decided to grab his digital camera and start recording the actions of the distraught Dziekanski before police arrived.
... On Tuesday evening in Toronto, Pritchard's work in documenting what happened and waging a legal battle against the RCMP for the release of his video was honoured by Canadian Journalists for Free Expression.
The organization gave Pritchard its first-ever award for citizen journalism, which recognizes the contributions of ordinary people in the field of journalism.
But Pritchard is still questioning his role in what happened and the choices he made that night.
Two years after the incident, Pritchard told CBC News he still wonders what might have happened had he decided to talk to the distraught Polish immigrant rather than videotape him in distress.
"I don't consider myself a hero, and to be honest, I'm not completely happy with the fact that I did that," said Pritchard. "Maybe instead of grabbing a camera, I could have gone and talked to him.
"If I feel I did something wrong, or feel I didn't do enough, I think the effort I put in afterwards is enough for me to live with that … I did everything I possibly could do." |
In the meantime, Edmonton police officers who Tasered a man three times (he also died) have been cleared by yet another coronor citing "excited delirium" ... correct me if I'm wrong, I thought coroners went to medical school. Aren't they supposed to restrict their findings to actual medical conditions?
| Quote: | Two Edmonton police officers who used a Taser in an altercation with an agitated man who later died will not face criminal charges, the civilian agency that investigates serious police incidents announced Wednesday.
"In my determination, their actions were justified when considering all of the circumstances," said Clifton Purvis, executive director of the Alberta Serious Incident Response Team (ASIRT).
"In this incident, I must defer to the office of the chief medical examiner and I conclude that in this incident, the use of the Taser did not cause or contribute to the death of Trevor Grimolfson."
... Although a Taser was used on Grimolfson three times during the arrest, the medical examiner found he died from "excited delirium" that was brought on by the amount of drugs he had taken.
According to Purvis, Grimolfson had taken a potentially lethal combination of ecstasy and ketamine, an animal tranquillizer better known by its street name of special K. |
CBC. |
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | ... correct me if I'm wrong, I thought coroners went to medical school. Aren't they supposed to restrict their findings to actual medical conditions? |
Keep in mind, this is in Alberta, the same province where one of the top concerns of the "Environment Minister" is the provincial economy... so probably, the coroner works under the supervision of the Attorney General's office...
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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A case from Washington state, last June 10:
| Quote: | ... By the time Klocker arrived to provide “backup,” Meade had spent perhaps five minutes trying to convince Meservey to get out of the car. Klocker would later report that Meade’s tone and attitude toward the intoxicated man were “belligerent,” and that he “used language which made him [Klocker] uncomfortable because of the nearby civilians.”
“I don’t know why the f**k I am trying to save your dumb ass,” Meade snarled at Meservey, according to Klocker’s account.
Both Meade and Klocker withdrew their portable electro-shock torture devices (more commonly called Tasers). Meade, who was closest to the driver, shot Meservey with his Taser through the open driver’s side window, inflicting two separate strikes — one five seconds long, the other six seconds’ duration.
“Why in the f**k did you do that?” muttered the drunken man, who — predictably enough — didn’t want to stick around for any more abuse. He reached for his keys and started the car, but he had nowhere to go: It lurched over a concrete curb and ran into an unyielding chain-link fence.
Bear in mind, once again, that Meservey was entirely boxed in. It was possible, albeit with some difficulty, for Officer Meade to reach through the window and seize the car keys, rather than escalating the situation by using potentially deadly force.
But Meade’s pointless escalation didn’t stop with the two Taser strikes.
After Meservey’s brief attempt to drive away, Meade — according to the official police account — took up a position near the left rear wheel of the Corvette, and pulled his gun.
“Time to end this,” bellowed Meade, according to Klocker. “Enough is enough.” From a distance of six to seven feet, Meade fired eight shots into the car, murdering Meservey.
When several other police officers arrived a few minutes later, Meade was seen pacing back and forth near the murder scene.
“I’m out of it,” he exclaimed to one of the new arrivals. “I want my Garrity.”
The “Garrity Rule” — adapted from the 1967 Supreme Court ruling Garrity v. New Jersey, which involved a ticket-fixing scandal — triggers an enhancement of the right against self-incrimination that only the government’s armed enforcers enjoy: Any statements made after the magical Garrity incantation is uttered can only be used for the purpose of a departmental investigation, not for criminal prosecution.
Klocker, who witnessed the entire incident, pointed out to investigators that when Meservey’s body was pulled from the car, the prongs of Officer Meade’s Taser were still firmly embedded in his shoulder.
“I’m thinking as I ‘m dragging him … why didn’t we [shock] him again?” Klocker told investigators. If escalation had been “necessary,” Klocker thought, Meade would have used the Taser again, or resorted to pepper spray. “I would never have shot [Meservey]… I don’t think we had reached that level of force yet,” Klocker concluded. |
More details @ link
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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Arkansas cop uses taser on 10-year-old girl:
| Quote: | | According to a report filed by Bradshaw on Thursday, the officer found the girl on the floor of the house screaming and crying. She refused to follow her mother's instructions and the mother told Bradshaw to use his Taser. Bradshaw carried the girl to the living room and told her she was going to jail, according to the report. The girl was violently kicking, the report said, and struck Bradshaw in the groin with her legs and feet. The report said Bradshaw administered a 'very, very brief' stun with the Taser, put the girl in handcuffs and carried her to his patrol car. She was taken to the Western Arkansas Youth Shelter in Cecil. |
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Cartman
Beyond cuddly
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8635
Location: OMG! They killed Jason Kenney!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The girl was violently kicking, the report said, and struck Bradshaw in the groin with her legs and feet. |
Ah, so she was exhibiting clear signs of super-hyper psycho excited delirium! Lucky she didn't manage to use a stapler on the guy. |
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Rufus Polson
Purple Library Guy
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 3483
Location: SFU and/or the college of Riddlemastery at Caithnard
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| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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So this kid was having a tantrum, and the cop tasered her. Why? So he could handcuff her and put her in his squad car.
Um, what? WTF? So the cop got called in by this mother who sounds like a real piece of work and found a kid having a tantrum. To me the appropriate response would be something along the lines of "Lady, your kid hasn't committed any crime, she isn't the law's problem. If you need counselling on parenting, here are some phone numbers." |
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Tehanu
More or less, more or less
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 17638
Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| No kidding. And using a Taser on a 10-year-old? She could have been killed. I'm betting that the much-vaunted Taser International safety doesn't apply to 70-lb children. |
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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Cop gets 7-day paid vacation for Tasering child
| Quote: | | The Arkansas cop who used a Taser on a 10-year-old girl was punished with a 7-day paid vacation -- not for stungunning a little girl, but for not having a camera on his Taser. |
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thwap
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4564
Location: Hamilton
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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Don't forget that one cop who said the kid who jumped/fell from the overpass and broke his back was saying things like "Kill cops!" and other "threatening things."
So either this mother is a nutbar and the cop is a complete moron, or the cop is a liar and a complete moron.
Tasering a ten-year old! What a fucking putz.
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Man! I hate them fancy-lads! |
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| Rufus Polson wrote: | | To me the appropriate response would be something along the lines of "Lady, your kid hasn't committed any crime, she isn't the law's problem. If you need counselling on parenting, here are some phone numbers." |
I could even go with charging the mother for filing a frivolous report.
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This is pre-eminently the time, to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself-Franklin Delano Roosevelt |
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
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Legless_Marine
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 575
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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Good to see shoddy policing addressed.... But I don't think there's any cure for the shitty parenting that lead to this, and feel for this young girl.
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Tehanu
More or less, more or less
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 17638
Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Firing is one thing, what are they going to do about the misuse of Tasers? |
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