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Jingles
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Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 264
Location: 53°31'58.04"N, 113°30'12.18"W
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 Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject: Agent Provocateurs |
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It looks like them anarchists and the police shop at the same shoe store.
Photo from the maker of the boots, Vibram, listed as "military"
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sparqui
Dog tired
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 5150
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Good catch!
Stop SPP Protest - Union Leader stops provocateurs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St1-WTc1kow
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m0nkyman
you need arms on the left too
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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Location: Ottawa
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | It looks like them anarchists and the police shop at the same shoe store.
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Indeed. Probably Mark's Work Wearhouse.
I don't know how surprising it should be that self-style revolutionary anarchists are buying military gear. They seem to get themselves pretty excited with the paramilitary crap.
Anyway, if this is the new standard for "beyond a doubt" then I'll bookmark this thread, in case someone's not willing to declare a criminal or a terrorist guilty on the basis of flimsy circumstantial evidence in future. What kind of shoes do most terrorists wear, anyway?
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m0nkyman
you need arms on the left too
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 1141
Location: Ottawa
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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It's not just the same brand. It's the same boot.... Which if only one of the provocateurs was wearing them would be Ko-inky-dink..... By the actions in the videotape, the matching boots, and the lack of handcuffs in the picture I linked, I think any reasonable person would think they're provocateurs.
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Senor Magoo
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Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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It's certainly a reasonable suspicion (though I'd also be wondering what, exactly, the police gained from their presence).
Thing is, "we believe easily that which we wish for earnestly". If the alleged provocateurs were instead alleged vandals or thieves, would we accept a similarity in shoe soles as any kind of proof (nevermind "beyond a doubt") that they were guilty?
My guess is that we'd be chastizing anyone who said "vandals" rather than "alleged vandals", and every other post would include the phrase "we need to wait for some real proof!". I'm sure people are all goose-pimply at the thought that the cops have been busted, but still, no need to get ahead of ourselves, right?
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al-Qa'bong
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 6031
Location: A monistic vulgarity in which nobility and wisdom have been exchanged for a pale belief in progress
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | It's certainly a reasonable suspicion (though I'd also be wondering what, exactly, the police gained from their presence).
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A reason for being?
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Senor Magoo
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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They could have happily assigned three more officers to the event, and they'd have been allowed to carry those kewl guns, too.
I'm just not seeing how these three, if they are indeed APs, secured any particular advantage or benefit for the cops.
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ronb
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Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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Location: Blackroof country, no gold pavement, tired starling
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The three do not appear to have been arrested or charged with any offence.
Police confirm that only four protesters were arrested during the summit – two men and two women. All have been charged with obstruction and resisting arrest. |
Who gives a shit about the boots? The story is the disappearing activists.
From Torstar, that anarchist rag |
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Senor Magoo
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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I'm curious: why is it surprising to anyone that they weren't charged or arrested, when every account of the story notes that they hadn't thrown any rocks, nor engaged in any scuffles?
If they smashed a window, were handcuffed, and then neither arrested nor charged, that might be suspicious, but it doesn't really appear that they did anything for which an arrest would be a foregone conclusion.
Maybe their jackbooted RCMP masters forgot to tell them that they're supposed to actually THROW the rocks.
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sparqui
Dog tired
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 5150
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:31 am Post subject: |
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Well I never heard anything about the 2 men and 2 women arrested having thrown rocks or punches or anything like that. Yet I saw on the video that the three "questionable" protesters where thrown on the ground by the police, as if they were problematic (but without any handcuffing). I don't think this is all down to "tin foil" speculation. Their behaviour and the subsequent police behaviour raises lots of questions.
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al-Qa'bong
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 6031
Location: A monistic vulgarity in which nobility and wisdom have been exchanged for a pale belief in progress
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:45 am Post subject: |
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This is a bit long, but I'm forwarding a letter sent to one of our local activist networks:
| Quote: | Dear friends,
This is an interesting and important story developing around what looks like the use of undercover police to disrupt and discredit the anti-SPP protests in Montebello, Quebec. Below you will find links to a video posted on youtube.com which includes footage of three masked men with rocks in their hands approaching a police line, apparently with the intention of throwing the rocks/bricks at the police.
Paul Manly, head of the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers union confronts the three men and accuses them of being police (agents provocateurs) and asks them to leave. Eventually after a confrontation, the three men are grabbed by riot police and the men are apparently arrested.
As you will read below, the masked men never contacted the activists' legal team to access support for their arrests and the police
have no record of the three men ever being taken into custody. There are
other pieces of evidence to support the allegations that these three men
were police included below.
Please skip ahead to the story below if you want to read about it
immediately, what follows is my own personal account of encounters with
undercover police and agents provocateurs at the G8 protests in Calgary 5
years ago.
The most apparent presence of undercover police dressed as militant
protestors or black bloc I have ever witnessed happened at the G8 protests in Calgary in 2002. The police had at least one undercover officer in the inner circle of the G8 protest organizing committee. These undercover officers were in place months ahead of time. There was a particular organizer who I know to have been an undercover who led a number of the meetings that I attended who dressed like a punk rocker/anarchist (black army boots, patches, punk t-shirts, etc.). I know that he was a police officer because a group of friends of mind from Edmonton who had organized with this individual, saw him in a coffee shop a number of months later in his police uniform, drinking coffee with some fellow officers. The following is what I know about how this individual and other police officers disrupted the G8 protests in Calgary.
The organizing meetings for the G8 protests included a number of different
groups representing different interests including members of the trade union movement (some members of the Canadian Labour Congress, Alberta Federation of Labour and other union members), the Council of Canadians, as well as environmental groups, Aboriginal activists and many individuals who were concerned about the G8. The protests were organized so that all in attendance at the large organizing meetings (usually around 100-200 people) had a say about what kind of protests would happen and the tactics used during the protests (a document was created called a basis of unity). Any logistics regarding parade routes and the nuts and bolts of how the protests would proceed were handled by a small group of Alberta-based organizers entrusted with figuring out the best and most effective routes to take for our protest march. The undercover officer in question was a member of this small organizing group.
The night before the biggest march through Calgary, the undercover led a
meeting and once the people in attendance had decided upon the messaging and the intention of the march, the floor was opened up to questions. One woman asked a question of the small group determining the parade route. She requested information as to the level of risk of arrest for those participating in the march the next morning. I remember the undercover officer telling her that if she was scared of being arrested that she should stay home. I remember a gasp from the crowd at the disrespectful answer to her question. In hindsight, the message was clear to me - if you weren't hardcore and willing get arrested, you should stay home.
The march proceeded the next morning with members of small logistical
coordinating committee placed both within the march and on bicycles which rode ahead and scouted out police positions to radio back to the those within the march. The march had no firmly planned route but was meant to go through Calgary's business district and send the message to the business community that we were there to counter their agenda. A rough route had apparently been agreed upon by this committee and the bicycle scouts were to determine the best streets to take.
Unfortunately, the undercover officer was placed in charge of leading the march itself and was apparently taking orders from the police instead of the bicycle scouts. He took the march in a different direction which barely made it through the Calgary business district and caused very few traffic issues for Calgary commuters. I later learned from friends who helped organize the march, that he apparently took the march in opposite directions of what the bike scouts were suggesting, rendering our march virtually without impact on the people to whom we were trying to get our message across.
During the march a friend of mine from Saskatoon was approached by a masked protester dressed in black who tried to convince him to go into the Red Zone (code for the area where confrontations with the police were most likely) and "fuck shit up" with him. My friend sensed that there was something different about the protestor and asked him politely if he was a police officer. The man reacted quite violently and verbally berated my friend for having the gall to accuse him of being a cop. After strongly denying the accusation the man shortly left the scene.
I noticed several other undercover police at the march. I had been to
several protests in my life before this one in Calgary and was comfortable
enough in the marches that I would notice details that someone who was
absorbed in the energy and momentum of the march would not. I started to look around and was able to pick out at least a half dozen undercover
officers, all dressed as militant protestors. I watched as these masked men would appear and disappear behind bunches of trees, hills and corners.
Manywore sunglasses to hide their eyes. No incidents of provocation happened like the one in Montebello but the story my friend recounted to me indicates that the police had a plan of trying to create a violent incident if they could.
I know first hand that police use these violent incidents as an excuse to
descend upon a protest and arrest anyone they can get their hands on. In
Montreal in the summer of 2003 at a WTO Finance Ministers meeting, I and
over 250 other people were arrested and spent over 36 hours in jail because a handful of people in the march smashed some windows. I don't believe that this incident was caused by the police but they certainly used the opportunity to repress the right to protest of the entire group.
All of the charges against myself and this group of people were dropped after two and a half years of the prosecution stalling and drawing our cases out in the court. We are now in the process of moving forward with a class action law suit against the Montreal Police for violating our charter rights to freedom of expression.
For me the Montebello story is not a surprise. I have seen police use these and all sorts of illegal and dirty tactics to break up protests. I am glad that this was caught on tape as it is a clear example that the police are not in the business of keeping the peace but instead of serving the
interests of those in power to repress dissent.
I have seen time and time again that they are not interested in just nabbing the "bad apples" within these protests (which would not be particularly difficult) but instead of instigating violent incidents or using violent incidents to repress and discredit movements with legitimate analyses and critiques of the state of the world.
I hope that this gets some serious press coverage as the Canadian public
needs to see what our government and their lackeys in the police apparatuses are up to. If these incidents are ignored and just talked about within activist circles, no pressure will ever be put on the police to obey the law and they will only expand the use of these tactics.
Please forward this information to your friends and family and call your
local media outlets and let them know that you think that this is an
important story that needs to be heard.
Thanks for reading.
In solidarity,
Pete
=======================================================
From Kevin Skerrett...
Hi folks,
The Paul Manly YouTube video of the suspected provocateurs has already been viewed some 10,000 times. A reminder:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St1-WTc1kow
A reporter with the Canadian Press has already picked up on this story, and filed an early wire story here:
http://www.brandonsun.com/story.php?story_id=66806
A colleague of mine was also present during the "arrest" of the three, and
took a series of potentially very important photos of the episode. They
have been posted to the CUPE website at:
http://www.cupe.ca/gallery/montebello-monday?page=4
If you look at the soles of the boots of the three individuals (two viewable
at photo #31, and the other at #32), you will notice that not only do each
of the three have identical yellow oval markers in the centre, the markers
are also identical to the markers on the soles of the SQ riot cops.
When viewed in combination with the Manly YouTube video, and setting this alongside the fact that these three individuals did not call for legal
support to the established Legal team, and the fact that the police now appear to be denying that these three individuals were ever arrested - I think the evidence that these were paid provocateurs or cops becomes overwhelming.
I shared these photos with Joan Bryden, the Canadian Press reporter that I believe filed the above early story, and it looks as though she has already filed an expanded version of the story onto the wire and it was posted to the website of the Toronto Star three hours ago:
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/248608
I also sent them to a reporter at the Ottawa Sun, and he may report it.
Another colleague from the labour movement was also present at this episode and took a number of photos. He has promised to send them to me tomorrow.
There may be nothing, but it could also become very valuable to compile all photos, video, and eyewitness accounts into one place. I would like to
invite anyone with any such further documentation of this episode - or even of the area nearby - to send them to me. I think an organized effort to pore over every item we have access to will be worthwhile.
My email is kskerrett@cupe.ca and my cell phone is 613 864 1590. I would also be interested to collect any published (or public) statements coming from either the police or government in reaction to questions on this. I will make sure that whatever material is compiled is, at least, posted to the IMC website and this email list.
I'm sure that it goes without saying that the deployment of provocateurs is
both an outrageous attack on dissent and a perfect illustration of who the
extremists and criminals really are. Even the most mainstream of
journalists will, I think, be forced to report on this important story.
Let's hope that there may be still more documentation out there.
I have also suggested to several contacts at the CoC, CLC, and a few others involved in SPP related work to consider holding a joint press conference on this, or at least issue a joint statement or release. I think we should be demanding no less than a full investigation into the use of agents provocateurs, how many were used, what their instructions were, how have they been used in the past, etc.
Finally, there may also be legal avenues to be considered - as in, legal
action against the police. In addition, if charges are laid against any of
the arrestees, it may well be worth bringing this evidence of instigation
forward to any court proceedings. I hope Ottawa Legal folks can share all
of this with the lawyers involved, in case it is considered helpful.
Kevin Skerrett |
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"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl |
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Tehanu
More or less, more or less
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 17636
Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:52 am Post subject: |
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Some more details from the CBC, including a former police officer who believes that these people were, in fact, not legitimate protesters. Denials from the Sureté Québec, no comment from the RCMP.
| Quote: | ... Organizers of the protests at the North American leaders' summit in Montebello, Que., say they have video that shows police disguised as masked demonstrators tried to incite violence on Monday.
... In the footage filmed Monday afternoon, three burly men with bandanas and other covers over their faces push through protesters toward a line of riot police. One of the men has a rock in his hand.
... In the end, they squeeze behind the police line, where they are calmly handcuffed.
... The RCMP has refused to comment, while Quebec's provincial force has flatly denied that its officers were involved in the incident.
It said it is not releasing any names as no charges were laid.
Meanwhile, a retired Ottawa police officer who was formerly in charge of overseeing demonstrations for the force said he questions who the masked men really are, after viewing the video.
"Were they legitimate protesters? I don’t think so," said Doug Kirkland.
"Well, if they weren't police, I think they might well have been working in the best interests of police." |
Al-Q had this link in his post, but in case you missed it, here's the video on YouTube. |
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leftcoastguy
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Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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Location: Leftcoast
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:08 am Post subject: |
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If this is accurate you gotta at least give credit to the RCMP for consistency. It seems their barn burning incident of years gone by was just a warm up exercise. 
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al-Qa'bong
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 6031
Location: A monistic vulgarity in which nobility and wisdom have been exchanged for a pale belief in progress
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I'm curious: why is it surprising to anyone that they weren't charged or arrested, when every account of the story notes that they hadn't thrown any rocks, nor engaged in any scuffles?
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Any episode of Wiseguy could tell you why.
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"The purpose of government is to protect the weak from the powerful" Hammurabi
"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl |
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leftcoastguy
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Posts: 5977
Location: Leftcoast
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:14 am Post subject: |
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No record of their arrest. Humm.......  
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Oh_CanaBa
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | I'm curious: why is it surprising to anyone that they weren't charged or arrested, when every account of the story notes that they hadn't thrown any rocks, nor engaged in any scuffles?
If they smashed a window, were handcuffed, and then neither arrested nor charged, that might be suspicious, but it doesn't really appear that they did anything for which an arrest would be a foregone conclusion.
Maybe their jackbooted RCMP masters forgot to tell them that they're supposed to actually THROW the rocks. |
The others arrested didn't do anything either and were roughed up and dragged off and charged. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........................................ |
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leftcoastguy
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Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5977
Location: Leftcoast
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:07 am Post subject: |
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What were Harper's derogatory comments about the protestors again?
I'd love to reread them now after this expose of our police forces at work protecting Canadian government officials and visiting foreign dignitaries from Canadian Commies, er.....Canadian police forces. Why should we assume that Harper did not instigate this police behaviour in the first place?
The police have been caught with their hands in the cookie jar, so to minimize the damage and protect their eroding credibility with Canadians they need to come clean and fess up about their behaviour and who put them up to it as soon as possible.
Their silence is deafening.
Police planted rock-toting ‘agents’ at protest
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leftcoastguy
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Location: Leftcoast
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:37 am Post subject: |
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The police are in full instigator, er...denial mode.
Gee, what a surprise.
| Quote: | He said police may have wanted to justify the millions spent on security for the summit by creating an incident they could quell. But he said there may also have been a political motive to discredit the protesters as violent radicals, thereby deflecting attention from the substance of their opposition to the SPP.
"This is the face of (the SPP), where people can't even ask a question without having to face these kinds of goons. It's time that all the secrecy and backroom deals end," said Coles.
"The SPP is a fraud, just like those three so-called activists were." |
Police deny using 'provocateurs' at summit
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ronb
mocker
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2627
Location: Blackroof country, no gold pavement, tired starling
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm curious: why is it surprising to anyone that they weren't charged or arrested, when every account of the story notes that they hadn't thrown any rocks, nor engaged in any scuffles? |
I'm curious how it is that the police can throw someone to the ground without arresting them. |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:07 am Post subject: |
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Hehe. A bunch of radical Muslim wingnuts attempt to buy several pickup trucks worth of fertilizer and we're not supposed to "get ahead of ourselves" or "jump to any conclusions", because after all, maybe they just have a giant garden in the middle of Toronto. Lots of people like to buy in bulk and save!
Three guys aren't arrested for holding a rock, AND their generic safety shoes appear to have a similar sole to some cops' generic safety shoes and it's an open-and-shut case of inappropriate police behaviour. They spoke to police! That proves it!
Okey dokey. 
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The Evil Twin
Stoned Immaculate
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 3746
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Three guys aren't arrested for holding a rock, AND their generic safety shoes appear to have a similar sole to some cops' generic safety shoes and it's an open-and-shut case of inappropriate police behaviour. They spoke to police! That proves it!
Okey dokey.
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It wasn't just speaking. Both CBC and CTV tonight showed one of the "protesters" whispering to one of the cops like they were old buddies. Furthermore, none of the other protesters seemed to know them or had ever heard of them before. You don't find any of this odd? BTW, no I'm not saying it's an "open and shut case" (though others do), I just find it odd. And I think we can all agree here that cops DO indeed try to infiltrate these types of groups. Hell, even the Police have (in other instances) admitted as much.
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ArghMonkey
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Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 353
Location: Vanada
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:53 am Post subject: Cops disguised as protesters try to start riot in Quebec |
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Since theres a million threads and I cant spend hours looking to see if theres a multiple I will hope someone points it out.
We all should know that cops are capable of many deceitful and sleazy tactics, this is one of the latest and while it chills me to be reminded how disgusting our so called peace officers can be I have to say I smiled happily to realize that these three assholes were caught.
Now I am just waiting for people to recognize the faces of these pieces of shit so we can expose them as cops in front of the entire country.
What a shameful act by our enforcement agency.
Video after the jump.
Here is a picture of the face of one of the cops from the video clip.
Lets try to get some internet power behind this, pass this image on to friends and friends of friends, lets see if we cant figure out who exactly these guys are.
http://www.calculatedchaos.ca/?p=172
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Tehanu
More or less, more or less
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:57 am Post subject: |
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Four down.
I'll merge them for you! |
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al-Qa'bong
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 6031
Location: A monistic vulgarity in which nobility and wisdom have been exchanged for a pale belief in progress
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | Hehe. A bunch of radical Muslim wingnuts attempt to buy several pickup trucks worth of fertilizer and we're not supposed to "get ahead of ourselves" or "jump to any conclusions", because after all, maybe they just have a giant garden in the middle of Toronto. Lots of people like to buy in bulk and save!
Three guys aren't arrested for holding a rock, AND their generic safety shoes appear to have a similar sole to some cops' generic safety shoes and it's an open-and-shut case of inappropriate police behaviour. They spoke to police! That proves it!
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Funny you should bring up that case. Wasn't a cop who infiltrated the group responsible for making all the arrangements for the group to acquire the fertilizer?
_________________
"The purpose of government is to protect the weak from the powerful" Hammurabi
"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl |
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ArghMonkey
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Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 353
Location: Vanada
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:25 am Post subject: |
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You know the most telling thing was the way the 3 guys reacted ...
I was skeptical until I saw the video, they were scared shitless and it showed, their cover was blown and they had no idea how to get out and then to basically walk into the police, they just wanted a way out ...
First off notice the size of these guys, no tats that I could see and when people started to question them they clammed up and just stood scared.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that these were cops, sent in to give goos cause for the other cops to smash protester skulls, its not a new tactic, years ago I remember seeing cops pull this crap, that was in Windsor Ontario, but this is the first time I smiled when I saw this video and said "haha, gotcha fucker!".
Im hoping the net catchs on to some images of the cops and then finds out their real names and some photographs, just embarrass the hell out of them.
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Squishy
Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Hmmm big, beefy guys in their 30s or 40s. Looks more like cops than your typical hotheaded young anarchists. Yeah, I know its stereotypes, but... |
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thwap
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4564
Location: Hamilton
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:52 am Post subject: |
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Pretty amateurish too. "Duh, ... let's all wear our cop boots."
"Duh, one of our guys got caught at the demo, wearing a mask and holding a rock. What do I do? Duh, ... stand here in my riot gear and try to look inconspicuous. Oh god! SOMEBODY TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!!"
Seriously, ... a masked protestor, at a highly-guarded political summit, carrying a rock, .... walks towards the police line when confronted, ... and stands there with said rock, pushing an unarmed man, ... is then taken down and supposedly arrested, ... but then he, and 2 of his masked, rock carrying buddies are released unconditionally, the police not seeming to be concerned with keeping tabs on somebody who shows up at international summits wearing masks and carrying rocks and trying to incite violence. 4 others (unarmed, are arrested ...
somebody just handed me a baby ....
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ronb
mocker
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2627
Location: Blackroof country, no gold pavement, tired starling
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | A bunch of radical Muslim wingnuts attempt to buy several pickup trucks worth of fertilizer and we're not supposed to "get ahead of ourselves" or "jump to any conclusions"... |
Apparently we're supposed to shut up and swallow the official line no matter how ridiculous. Entrapment in that case, and attempted entrapment in this case - ho hum. Who cares. The police are our friends. Always. Questions are treason, and besides, they make it look like you may not know everything.
BTW, how is that "wingnut" case coming along anyway? You'd think crazy Islamo-let's-revoke-their-citzenship terrorists building a bomb to blow up the Parliament buildings would be a slamdunk. After all, the crown has already presented the evidence, they are obviously guilty. They must already be serving their sentences or are being tortured in Syria or Gitmo as we speak. Why the wait? Are we on hold until the next writ drops? |
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5 minutes to midnight
Friendly co-dictator of the board
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 1193
Location: The Okanagan, British Columbia
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Magoo, I tend to be skeptical of your left-wing conspiracy theories, but this warrants further investigation. Not that it will be investigated. Consider the following:
- All 3 protesters coincidentally wear the same boots as the riot police officers
- One of the protesters freely talks to the riot police
- All of them just freeze and clam up when confronted by the protesters
- No record of arrest
When you look at these facts separately, there is room leftover for doubt. But when you look at it all together, its simply too much.
Why there are Agent Provocateurs in the first place is a frightening question.
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It wasn't just speaking. Both CBC and CTV tonight showed one of the "protesters" whispering to one of the cops like they were old buddies. Furthermore, none of the other protesters seemed to know them or had ever heard of them before. You don't find any of this odd? |
Sure, but it's in a an "oddness competetion" with the assumptions that would be required to believe that the three were provocateurs.
It would be no less "odd" to think that three cops are going to be asked to be provocateurs, so they make sure to wear their special, exclusive police boots, they hold (but never throw) a rock, they seem uninterested in actually trying to get others to follow them to the violence that they never actually commit, and they make a point of talking to their colleagues in plain view of everyone.
I know that there's not a great deal of respect for police 'round these parts, but I hope nobody genuinely believes that one of Canada's largest police forces would so thoroughly clued out on the concept of "undercover". A group of highschool kids would be more sensible than that.
| Quote: | | And I think we can all agree here that cops DO indeed try to infiltrate these types of groups. Hell, even the Police have (in other instances) admitted as much. |
Infiltrate? Sure, they totally admit as much. But that's not the same as being a provocateur.
Amusingly, there's a news story about protests at other sites in the area that describe people being arrested for throwing rocks and branches. Either everyone that was arrested is also an undercover cop, or else maybe there's more than enough wingnuts ready to hurl a rock, and realistically no need for police to try to force this to happen.
IMHO, that's where this falls apart: there's really no need for police to try to make people throw rocks when they're perfectly willing to do it anyway.
| Quote: | Funny you should bring up that case. Wasn't a cop who infiltrated the group responsible for making all the arrangements for the group to acquire the fertilizer?
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Yup. Except that, of course, he didn't. No different from undercover cops who "make all the arrangements" for a contract killing, except that they don't really.
Was that supposed to be proof of something?
| Quote: | | First off notice the size of these guys, no tats that I could see |
More solid, irrefutable evidence: no visible tattoos. Exhibit C. Put that beside the similar boots and the photo of the three talking to police.
| Quote: | | Entrapment in that case, and attempted entrapment in this case |
The power "peer pressure" seems to have over witless adults, eh?
"That burly, untattooed protester is holding a rock! That member of our little terrorist cell says we need to buy a few tonnes of fertilizer. Who are we to argue??"
The idea that we're surrounded by gullible, malleable idiots is considerably more disconcerting to me than the idea of three cops holding a rock.
| Quote: | | BTW, how is that "wingnut" case coming along anyway? |
They let some of the younger wingnuts go, and the rest still have their charges.
But what worries me is their garden!
How were their tomato plants this year without a few thousand kilograms of pure nitrate fertilizer? Brown spots? Low yield?? I've been using approximately 300 kg of fertilizer per plant on mine, and they're coming along nicely.
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Factotum
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 238
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | | ArghMonkey wrote: | | First off notice the size of these guys, no tats that I could see |
More solid, irrefutable evidence: no visible tattoos. Exhibit C. Put that beside the similar boots and the photo of the three talking to police. |
Yeah, I didn't quite understand that either. Big Guy sans Tattoos = Police? |
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al-Qa'bong
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 6031
Location: A monistic vulgarity in which nobility and wisdom have been exchanged for a pale belief in progress
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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I kinda groaned when I read that, too. I'm a big guy with no tattoos, but I put an RCMP member through an investigation for a racist comment he made to me a couple of years ago.
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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This is starting to take on the classic heuristics of a conspiracy theory. Specifically, circumstantial evidence, combined with things that "just don't make sense" is, allegedly, snowballing into a pile of incontrovertable, solid evidence!
They talked to the cops, and that "doesn't make sense", therefore they must also be cops.
They don't look like the stereotype of a black bloc buffoon, therefore they must be cops.
Their boots are also safety-rated for punctures, just like the boots cops buy, therefore they must be cops.
And no tattoos? NO TATTOOS??? Well, who but the most stalwart of reactionaries can deny that little piece of hard evidence?
I think I'll risk being branded a stooge of the police state and hold out the possibility that they weren't actually cops. I know that it's like denying a round earth, but I'll take my chances. And honestly, in some ways, I'm amused at this new, much lower burden of proof. I expect I'm going to enjoy it.
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thwap
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4564
Location: Hamilton
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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I take it these stupid comments are the attempt by some to "keep us honest"?
What a bunch of laughable crap. You two should be embarrassed to type such nonsense.
But do go on. Masked, armed anarchists who slither towards the police line and then get "arrested" and then released without even their names being taken?
Who just ALL happen to be wearing the same boots as the cops?
Who just ALL happen to be bigger and older than the genuine anarchist youth who are accusing them of being cops?
Against the history of agents provocateurs against the left for over a century?
Yeah, ... thanks you two for your valuable skepticism. Nothing to see here.
Jeeziz, when you think of it, none of us knows whether the sun will rise in the East tomorrow neither. Hmmm. Kinda makes you think, don't it?
Everyone, let the "contrarian" and the "skeptic" play with each other and we can focus on the significance of our moronic leaders sending their moronic, lying thugs to order even bigger idiots to try to stir up trouble to give the state further excuses to criminalize and delegitimize dissent in this country.
Fer fuck's sake.
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ArghMonkey
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 353
Location: Vanada
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Factotum wrote: | | Senor Magoo wrote: | | ArghMonkey wrote: | | First off notice the size of these guys, no tats that I could see |
More solid, irrefutable evidence: no visible tattoos. Exhibit C. Put that beside the similar boots and the photo of the three talking to police. |
Yeah, I didn't quite understand that either. Big Guy sans Tattoos = Police? |
Im not saying because they didnt have tats that its a slamdunk, im saying it doesnt add up, the whole thing ...
Like I said, it was their reaction to being confronted that has me convinced, its what convinced the union leader too, he said he looked the guy in the eyes and said "are u a cop?" and he could tell that the guy was scared to answer ...
Any normal person would yell back or react in some other way, these guys were stunned and when they realized they had no way to get out they V lined for the cops to get out of there ...
Add their reaction, the fact that they looked like cops (notice the face of the one guy, most clean cut anarchist ive seen!, add that they all wear the same boots (notice how the one set had yellow crayon and duct tape on it, looks like the tried to make that set look different).
Also notice the way they were taken down, looked pretty orderly to me *L* ive seen cops go after anarchists in crowds, they arent nearly as nice as they seemed in that video.
Without a doubt they were cops, they were caught, they didnt know how to respond, so they ran over to their cops buddies ....
Elementary my dear lefties!
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Palamedes
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 351
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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But, surely you can see that this is suspicious.
Three guys show up that want to exacerbate the level of violence. No one knows them. The protesters stop them from throwing rocks etc. Then they arrested but mysteriously are not charged, and no one hears from them again. On top of that, they just happen to have the same police standard boots. I'm not saying this is proof, but it certainly is suspicous.
As for why police might want to do this, there are two reasons.
Firstly, if police decide they don't want the protest to happen - they can essentially shut it down - because the crowd was getting violent - as evidenced by the protesters throwing rocks.
Secondly, provocateurs are often used to erode public sympathy for a cause. When animal rights people do something nutty, and endanger human lives, it erodes public sympathy. By having protesters commit acts that the majority of Canadians view as unethical, then the public will not support these protests, as the association will be made.
So, |
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Reverend Blair
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2255
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Apparently the real anarchists were already yelling that these three were cops. That's why the union guy asked the question.
The entire situation is suspect. The boots which it looks like they tried to camoflage with paint, their reaction to being called cops, the arrest, the identical (and new-looking) bankrobber kerchiefs, their age.
At the very least, it raises enough questions to warrant a full public investigation. If the cops are playing dress-up and trying to start riots...if there is even the slightest possibility of that...then we deserve to know.
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thwap
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4564
Location: Hamilton
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Let's keep this in mind. These are the types we're up against.
bush II is a moron. Mike Harris was a moron. Ralph Klein was a deteriorating alcoholic.
The "Blogging Tories" are all pretty much brain-dead wastes of sperm and wombs.
But they've got the guns. They've got control of "law and order" authority. And, as the bush II regime proves, they aren't afraid to blatantly abuse their powers.
But they're really, really, really stupid. Most of 'em anyway.
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ronb
mocker
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2627
Location: Blackroof country, no gold pavement, tired starling
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Specifically, circumstantial evidence, combined with things that "just don't make sense" is, allegedly, snowballing into a pile of incontrovertable, solid evidence! |
It is the absence of evidence in this case that raises flags - specifically a record of who the folks were, they were obviously arrested, who were they? the names of everyone else arrested were released, why not these guys?
| Quote: | | IMHO, that's where this falls apart: there's really no need for police to try to make people throw rocks when they're perfectly willing to do it anyway. |
...and there's really no need to goad folks into blowing up buildings, because they are also perfectly willing to as well. Except when they aren't. Then, sometimes the cops have to step in and help out.
And you're missing the point of the APs - no doubt deliberately - they aren't there to convince others to throw rocks, they are there to provide an excuse for the Police to attack the "violent" crowd and thus justify their budget. Not to mention discredit the protest.
It really amuses me that you go on about burden of proof with all of the photos and video and eyewitness testimony.
And please continue with the consipiracy theory meme. That's a great way to shut down debate. "Aren't you afraid someone will label you a kook if you ask questions?"
| Quote: | | think I'll risk being branded a stooge of the police state |
Going out on a limb and assuming your default position? What a shock.
Last edited by ronb on Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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al-Qa'bong
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 6031
Location: A monistic vulgarity in which nobility and wisdom have been exchanged for a pale belief in progress
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I think I'll risk being branded a stooge of the police state... |
"Stooge of the police state" will at least will be more appropriate than "He's got a big one."
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"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl |
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transplant
Starting Over Again
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 1710
Location: somewhere between here and there
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Squishy wrote: | | Hmmm big, beefy guys in their 30s or 40s. Looks more like cops than your typical hotheaded young anarchists. Yeah, I know its stereotypes, but... |
That's the first thing that I picked up on, squishy, not the boots. Then their behavior as they moved toward the police line for safety once they've been fingered, rocks still in-hand, to be taken down all too gently. I've been to plenty of demos and seen plenty of anarchists in action, and how cops deal with people with rocks. These guys are not anarchist, they're cops, plain as day.
| Senor Magoo wrote: | | It's certainly a reasonable suspicion (though I'd also be wondering what, exactly, the police gained from their presence). |
You're being incredibly naive, Magoo. Snap out of it. |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Firstly, if police decide they don't want the protest to happen - they can essentially shut it down - because the crowd was getting violent - as evidenced by the protesters throwing rocks.
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But my understanding is that the one guy holding a rock didn't even throw it, nor did the police shut anything down.
Am I to believe that the police officer was unable to even throw a friggin' rock? This whole big plan on the part of the cops fell to pieces when two guys didn't bother picking up any rocks, and the third just held onto his??
If things not adding up adds up to "proof", there's your proof that they WEREN'T cops.
| Quote: | But, surely you can see that this is suspicious.
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I don't disagree. But the leap from "suspicious" to "there's absolutely no doubt" was pretty quick. Hard not to wonder if maybe people are lowering the burden of proof a little because this is something they rilly, rilly want. I doubt they were cops, but I'm not rushing to declare that there's absolutely no doubt that they weren't.
| Quote: | | If the cops are playing dress-up and trying to start riots...if there is even the slightest possibility of that...then we deserve to know. |
Fair enough, but if they're this comically hopeless at it then I'm not going to lose too much sleep over the actual outcome of their attempts. I'd say we're pretty safe, as long as they never figure out that for this all to work, they actually have to throw the rock.
| Quote: | I take it these stupid comments are the attempt by some to "keep us honest"?
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Just seeing if I can get you to stop masturbating over this for five minutes. Go eat something. Keep up your strength.
| Quote: | And you're missing the point of the APs - no doubt deliberately - they aren't there to convince others to throw rocks, they are there to provide an excuse for the Police to attack the "violent" crowd and thus justify their budget. Not to mention discredit the protest.
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Way to go, Ron. Now the police know that they actually have to throw the rock.
Then they have to tear gas the crowd. Crap. I suppose I shouldn't have told them that.
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transplant
Starting Over Again
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 1710
Location: somewhere between here and there
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | | But my understanding is that the one guy holding a rock didn't even throw it, nor did the police shut anything down.... |
The hole you're in is getting deeper by the post, Magoo. The first step to getting out is to stop digging.
Watch the video. Once the three "anarchists" snuggle up to the police line in the corner, the "anarchist" with the dark glasses is continually talking over the shoulder of the riot cop at the end of the police line to the officers standing behind the line, no doubt trying to arrange a retreat through the line and a "show" arrest.
This incident sounds like a conspiracy theory because it is a conspiracy.
Last edited by transplant on Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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thwap
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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Location: Hamilton
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m0nkyman
you need arms on the left too
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 1141
Location: Ottawa
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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If you can find me a single instance anywhere in the world where a black bloc type moved towards the police for protection (while still carrying a big rock!) from a middle aged union leader, I'll believe that they weren't agents provacateur. 
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al-Qa'bong
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 6031
Location: A monistic vulgarity in which nobility and wisdom have been exchanged for a pale belief in progress
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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I find MacStooge's comment about believing in a round earth amusing, given his dismissal of photographic evidence because of his blind faith in the benevolence of the authorities.
_________________
"The purpose of government is to protect the weak from the powerful" Hammurabi
"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl |
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thwap
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4564
Location: Hamilton
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Let's take it as a given that these three guys were cops. As even I would concede, we don't know if this is true, ... but there are many things that we don't know. We live our lives evaluating the evidence and coming to rational conclusions based on this evidence.
It means that agents associated with those riot police were posing as anarchist demonstrators, carrying rocks, either to merely "infiltrate" potentially violent groups of protestors, or to act as "agents provocateurs" and bring down a violent response from the actual police.
What does this say, in the long run, about the forces of the state and its treatment of democracy activists? We should make Canadians aware of this and ask what this means about the system they think they live under, and our leaders' commitment to the rule of law.
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thwap
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Location: Hamilton
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ronb
mocker
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2627
Location: Blackroof country, no gold pavement, tired starling
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Way to go, Ron. Now the police know that they actually have to throw the rock. |
I'm pretty sure they know that, Magoo. They've been at this since at least the 19th Century. Now we finally have the technology to not only film them in the act, but post the evidence online for all to see.
These guys certainly gave every appearance of having been APs, and they clearly had a friendly relationship with the riot cops. Whether they were actually cops themselves seems kinda immaterial. Who were they and why did the cops let them go without filing a report?
As you've conceded, there's quite a bit of smoke here, and so far no effort by the Surete to clarify. But as a bemused skeptic, you'll happily take their stonewalling as evidence that nothing worth concerning ourselves has happened. Move along. nothing to see here. Just Union types sounding off, who can believe them after all? |
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