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Sibjyn
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 1120
Location: Vancouver
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 Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:20 am Post subject: Postal Strike? |
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I hope it doesn't happen but mail delivery could stop as soon as tomorrow. Even in this high tech world of email and internet tubes I still rely a lot on the post office so a strike will be very inconvenient for me.
On the other hand I support the postal workers and if they feel they have to go on strike for a fair deal then I support that too. |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:38 am Post subject: |
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One of the partners at my firm has contacts within CUPW and he says negotiations are not going well. Apparently a strike should be expected.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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abnormal
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 445
Location: somewhere over the rainbow
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:11 am Post subject: |
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In the past, everytime there's been a strike the Post Office has lost a very significant amount of business permanently. I doubt this time will be any different.
About the only thing I ever mail anymore is my property taxes - everything else I do on line. And if it's something that has to be physically delivered that's important enough, there's always Fed Ex.
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edited to add:
I'd no sooner posted this than I got an email from a friend stating that, in support of the workers he was going to boycott Canada Post by moving all of his accounts, credit card statements, and so forth on line.
While he was obviously being more than somewhat sarcastic in the way he phrased this the fact is that this strike is going to drive a lot of business away [the article said that mail volumes had declined by 17% since 2006]. It'll be interesting to see how much physical volumes decline this time around. |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like Canada Post is in a bit of a spiral. If they lose more business, that's not going to help them cover a pension shortfall. Which in turn leads to another strike some day, then more lost revenues, and so on.
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Sibjyn
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 1120
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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I thought Canada Post was making a profit of 300 million last year? Read that somewhere I think.
I have a love/hate with Canada Post. The service is okay, the prices, especially parcels, are outrageous. They do seem to be doing a few things better these days. For example they are parterning with online outlets to simplify customs and delivery charges. I think they also need to start looking at things like offering standard parcel prices for books and dvds, and offering discounts to small businesses and incentives to use the postal service over courier.
I'm just not sure I'm buying the Canada Post sob story that their staff have got to make concessions to keep the corp profitable. |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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I have to wonder the opposite: when business is declining, and is likely to keep declining, are yearly raises, a starting salary that's nearly two and a half times the (new!) minimum wage, and a generous pension plan sustainable forever? Continually raising the price of a stamp isn't likely to win that business back.
I've seen it suggested that Capitalism is necessarily doomed, because it relies on constant growth, which is not sustainable. This is totally different how?
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Raos
volatilis vir
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5472
Location: Petropolis
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Than Alberta's (new!) minimum wage while Canada Post is national.
I'd make the distinction that what "growth" is granted to employees' compensation and benefit packages and the growth of the corporation are not synonymous, and that the "growth" in employee wages isn't exactly outpacing inflation. Continuing to raise the price of a stamp is different from the constantly rising prices of everything else, how?
Managing this situation should be a matter of responsible management. The declining business shouldn't be a grave issue for a properly managed pension plan since that's (again, assuming proper management) based on, and supported by, the current work force, not the hypothetical workforce a few decades down the line. On the business side of things, it might be considered prudent to avoid a situation, like say a strike, that's fairly uncontroversially expected to exacerbate the decline causing most of the rest of your problems. One might notice a theme in where these problems should be resolved.
But further to that, always comparing a professional wage to minimum wage to make it sound extravagant bugs me. Minimum wage is, by definition, the minimal extreme possible. How is it a suggestion of gross entitlement for wages to compare favourably with "rock bottom"? |
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Sibjyn
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 1120
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | I have to wonder the opposite: when business is declining, and is likely to keep declining, are yearly raises, a starting salary that's nearly two and a half times the (new!) minimum wage, and a generous pension plan sustainable forever? Continually raising the price of a stamp isn't likely to win that business back.
I've seen it suggested that Capitalism is necessarily doomed, because it relies on constant growth, which is not sustainable. This is totally different how? |
When business is declining, good businesspeople look for opportunities to win back that business and expand. Simply moaning "oh people use email now, we can't afford pensions anymore" and banking on a conttinuing decline in people using the postal system does not sound like good business planning. |
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abnormal
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 445
Location: somewhere over the rainbow
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Sibjyn wrote: | | When business is declining, good businesspeople look for opportunities to win back that business and expand. |
But increasing postage to offset the drop in volume doesn't win people back. If anything it drives them away.
| Quote: | | Simply moaning "oh people use email now, we can't afford pensions anymore" and banking on a conttinuing decline in people using the postal system does not sound like good business planning. |
True. But it's not good business planning to be overly optimistic and assume that people will come back simply because you want them to. And it's definitely not good business planning to assume that you'll see an increase in growth simply because you need it to fund existing business practices.
To thrive (as opposed to simply survive) the post office will have to completely re-invent itself. I don't see how its existing business model can survive in the long run. [Think of their situation as being analagous to a buggy whip manufacturer. If they continued to think of themselves as being in the buggy whip business they died a natural, and deserved, death. If they thought of themselves as being in the transportation business and rebuilt their entire business model around that new paradym they could survive and do well.]
| Raos wrote: | | ...always comparing a professional wage to minimum wage to make it sound extravagant bugs me. |
I have real difficulty calling a letter carrier a "professional". On that basis so is my paperboy. |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Sibjyn wrote: | | Senor Magoo wrote: | I have to wonder the opposite: when business is declining, and is likely to keep declining, are yearly raises, a starting salary that's nearly two and a half times the (new!) minimum wage, and a generous pension plan sustainable forever? Continually raising the price of a stamp isn't likely to win that business back.
I've seen it suggested that Capitalism is necessarily doomed, because it relies on constant growth, which is not sustainable. This is totally different how? |
When business is declining, good businesspeople look for opportunities to win back that business and expand. Simply moaning "oh people use email now, we can't afford pensions anymore" and banking on a conttinuing decline in people using the postal system does not sound like good business planning. |
I also get pissed off by companies moaning about their unfunded pension liabilities. It isn't the fault of the workers that the company didn't pay into the pensions that it agreed to. This argument is essentially saying that workers should be prepared to swallow the pain because the company's management is financially incompetent.
I was at an interest arbitration a few months ago, and the employer's law spent a good twenty minutes whingeing about how they couldn't afford to pay any raise at all (they wanted the arbitrator to award a wage package of 0% in the first year, and then 1.5% in years two and three) because they had a mammoth unfunded pension liability. The union nominee on the arbitration panel basically said right out, why is it the worker's fault that you can't manage your own finances properly?
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Raos
volatilis vir
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5472
Location: Petropolis
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| abnormal wrote: | | Raos wrote: | | ...always comparing a professional wage to minimum wage to make it sound extravagant bugs me. |
I have real difficulty calling a letter carrier a "professional". On that basis so is my paperboy. |
Your paperboy is expecting that to be their career, such that details of pension and retirement are concerns of employment? I didn't intend "professional" in the sense of a person in a highly skilled field, I meant it in the sense of relating to a career or profession. |
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sparqui
Dog tired
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 5152
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Fully agree with you Raos. I remember people whining about salaries earned by OC Transpo bus drivers during past strikes, always denigrating their profession.
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Vundo Draxon
Leftist-rightie and rightist-leftie
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1712
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| sparqui wrote: | | Fully agree with you Raos. I remember people whining about salaries earned by OC Transpo bus drivers during past strikes, always denigrating their profession. |
Driving a bus requires a specific skill set and training that I do not have. It's nothing I could not learn to do, but I'd have to invest a fair amount of time, money, and effort into learning. I could not, at a day's notice, replace a bus driver at his or her job.
Delivering mail requires skills and abilities that I do have - reading, carrying a fairly large bag, and walking. I would need a lot less training to replace them in their jobs.
Therefore, it would make perfect sense to me for an OC Transpo bus driver to make more money than a letter carrier.
| Raos wrote: | | The declining business shouldn't be a grave issue for a properly managed pension plan since that's (again, assuming proper management) based on, and supported by, the current work force, not the hypothetical workforce a few decades down the line. |
If the trend is for the workforce to shrink and the pensioners to grow in number, it's a smaller problem today and will be an increasingly larger problem for those workers down the line. How is it not a problem to have more people receiving and less people contributing? |
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abnormal
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 445
Location: somewhere over the rainbow
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Vundo Draxon wrote: | | If the trend is for the workforce to shrink and the pensioners to grow in number, it's a smaller problem today and will be an increasingly larger problem for those workers down the line. How is it not a problem to have more people receiving and less people contributing? |
Actually Raos did give a valid answer of sorts to that problem.
| Raos wrote: | | The declining business shouldn't be a grave issue for a properly managed pension plan since that's (again, assuming proper management) based on, and supported by, the current work force, not the hypothetical workforce a few decades down the line. |
Unfortunately it's completely at odds with the NDP statement that CPP and GIS payments should be increased.
And you can't depend on there being enough future workers to pay the bills. I don't have Canadian figures handy but I expect they're not that different from the US. In 1940, there were 42 workers per retiree. In 1950, the ratio was 16-to-1. Today, there are 3.3 workers per retiree, and within 40 years, it’s projected that there will be just two workers per retiree. |
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| abnormal wrote: | | And you can't depend on there being enough future workers to pay the bills. I don't have Canadian figures handy but I expect they're not that different from the US. In 1940, there were 42 workers per retiree. In 1950, the ratio was 16-to-1. Today, there are 3.3 workers per retiree, and within 40 years, it’s projected that there will be just two workers per retiree. |
In the US, there is a maximum you will pay into social security no matter how much money you make, and I believe there is a similar thing here with the CPP. If you lift the cap and make the payment more progressive, you come up with more money for your retirees.
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Raos
volatilis vir
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5472
Location: Petropolis
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| Vundo Draxon wrote: | Driving a bus requires a specific skill set and training that I do not have. It's nothing I could not learn to do, but I'd have to invest a fair amount of time, money, and effort into learning. I could not, at a day's notice, replace a bus driver at his or her job.
Delivering mail requires skills and abilities that I do have - reading, carrying a fairly large bag, and walking. I would need a lot less training to replace them in their jobs.
Therefore, it would make perfect sense to me for an OC Transpo bus driver to make more money than a letter carrier. |
Except nobody was comparing postal workers to bus drivers. Both were compared to minimum wage, with the usual implication being that the difference is due to entitlement.
| abnormal wrote: | | Raos wrote: | | The declining business shouldn't be a grave issue for a properly managed pension plan since that's (again, assuming proper management) based on, and supported by, the current work force, not the hypothetical workforce a few decades down the line. |
Unfortunately it's completely at odds with the NDP statement that CPP and GIS payments should be increased. |
I don't follow, how so?
I'm not adequately familiar with the current state of CPP to have an opinion on where I think payment levels should be, but "payments should be increased" in isolation doesn't suggest either model in specific. If current payments won't be enough to support the pensions of current workers when they retire in the future, then payments should be increased and it's still the current workforce paying for their own pensions irrespective of the size of the workforce when they retire. |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | When business is declining, good businesspeople look for opportunities to win back that business and expand. Simply moaning "oh people use email now, we can't afford pensions anymore" and banking on a conttinuing decline in people using the postal system does not sound like good business planning. |
So basically, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get entrepreneurial?
I suppose the same harsh advice could be given to small, independent bookstores being killed by Amazon and Chapters, or community newspapers who, I guess, just need to find a way to beat Craigslist at its own game or something.
For what it's worth, when you have good reason to believe that your business will simply continue to decline (like the manufacturers of blank cassettes, for example) then "good business planning" would quite likely and quite reasonably include a reduction in workforce to accompany the reduction in sales. Are you still onside with CP thinking like a business?
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Sibjyn
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 1120
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Vundo Draxon wrote: | | sparqui wrote: | | Fully agree with you Raos. I remember people whining about salaries earned by OC Transpo bus drivers during past strikes, always denigrating their profession. |
Delivering mail requires skills and abilities that I do have - reading, carrying a fairly large bag, and walking. I would need a lot less training to replace them in their jobs.
Therefore, it would make perfect sense to me for an OC Transpo bus driver to make more money than a letter carrier.
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I think there's just a bit more to it than that. How do you suppose that sack of mail, all of which is addressed to homes and businesses in your area, gets to you each morning to deliver? What happens to that piece of mail once I stick it in the mailbox? |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Someone picks it up from the mailbox and delivers it to a central hub, where it's processed by machine (unless the postal code cannot be read), sorted and routed.
So, add "ability to drive" to the list.
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Sibjyn
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Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 1120
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe we could just sum up the driving and delivering as logistics. In order to run a professional mail delivery system you have to have solid logistics in the operation, and the carriers are part of that.
Honestly I have no trouble with seeing these guys as deserving of the wages and benefits they get. I expect a professional service from the post office and I believe that in order to get that you must treat the staff like professionals, and not glorified paperboys. |
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sparqui
Dog tired
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 5152
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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And there is a stark difference in the quality of retail service between the private franchised postal outlets and a Canada Post office that sells stamps and services. The latter are very professional and immediately recognize foreign countries as being overseas rates, know how to answer insurance questions and are better acquainted with the products they sell (including when new designs will become available).
As for mail delivery, the regular guy at my last place helped rescue me when I was trapped in the elevator. Probably not part of their job description but much appreciated by me. 
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F.
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 2578
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:25 am Post subject: |
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| I'm not sure I want the guy who delivers my tax rebate to be some kid working for minimum wage whose previous job experience was at the Taco Bell. Hell, I expect a better standard of service from Canada Post or the folks who renew my health card than I do from relatively higher paid Bell or Rogers employees. Privacy issues. |
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sparqui
Dog tired
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 5152
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:46 am Post subject: |
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Canada Post's Overpaid... CEO
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm not sure I want the guy who delivers my tax rebate to be some kid working for minimum wage whose previous job experience was at the Taco Bell. |
Maybe they could use some kind of elite letter carrier team during tax rebate season. You're certainly right that without years of expensive training, the average person is liable to just wander around and around and around and eventually dump all their mail in a garbage can.
I've seen too many laypeople try to "deliver" something to an "address" to be willling to cut corners on this.
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Sibjyn
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 1120
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | | Quote: | | I'm not sure I want the guy who delivers my tax rebate to be some kid working for minimum wage whose previous job experience was at the Taco Bell. |
Maybe they could use some kind of elite letter carrier team during tax rebate season. You're certainly right that without years of expensive training, the average person is liable to just wander around and around and around and eventually dump all their mail in a garbage can.
I've seen too many laypeople try to "deliver" something to an "address" to be willling to cut corners on this. |
Ya know you're being all sarcastic here but just last night I had the pizza dude phoning me because he couldn't figure out how to find my house. Is this what you want for our seniors who depend on their pension cheques by mail Magoo? IS IT??????? |
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Raos
volatilis vir
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5472
Location: Petropolis
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Seriously, is the scale between "minimum-wage worthy" and "elite professional" really a binary? |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Is this what you want for our seniors who depend on their pension cheques by mail Magoo? IS IT??????? |
That's exactly what I want! Muahahahaaha!!!!
That or a MAP.
Anyway, I'm really not trying to make the point that letter carriers should be paid minimum wage. But I will quarrel with the idea that we NEED to pay them a premium wage because finding an address is too hard for just anybody to do. C'mon. That's just ridiculous.
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Sibjyn
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 1120
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:00 am Post subject: |
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You right wingers and your maps. Maybe they need a pair of bootstraps too, to pull themselves up by?
I don't think that we NEED to pay them a premium wage because it's hard to find an address (admit it though, it can be hard!) but we need to pay them a decent, living wage and allow them provide for their retirement (an adequate retirement). The postal service is a public service and the I believe in the wage philosophy regarding public service workers. I think being a mail carrier is a lot different from being a paperboy and I think it's something that people should be able to make a career of. |
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sparqui
Dog tired
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 5152
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:48 am Post subject: |
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Amen to that ^^^!
CUPW has set the bar so that all sorts of workers get decent wages and benefits. Everyone that works provides a service and deserves decent compensation.
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abnormal
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 445
Location: somewhere over the rainbow
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| sparqui wrote: | | And there is a stark difference in the quality of retail service between the private franchised postal outlets and a Canada Post office that sells stamps and services. The latter are very professional and immediately recognize foreign countries as being overseas rates |
That explains why I've taken overseas letters to the Post Office and had the guy behind the counter weigh it and provide me with the appropriate stamps only to find the letter in my mail box a few days later stamped "Insufficient Postage". It also explains why, on those very few occassions that I mail things anymore I go to the local mailboxes outlet - the guys there seem to get it right. |
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F.
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 2578
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But I will quarrel with the idea that we NEED to pay them a premium wage because finding an address is too hard for just anybody to do |
Well, it's not only about carrying letters. I mean, there's strict privacy legislation. There's conflict of interest stuff. They take an oath. That's gotta bounce them a bit higher up the pay scale.
The guy who issues your OHIP card isn't doing anything all that sophisticated, but there's a higher standard that his performance is held to that justifies his wage. The repercussions of Canada Post guy or OHIP guy fucking up or being corrupt are potentially a lot more serious than your pizza guy.
Now university lecturers: we all know they're just glorified babysitters. Those guys should be minimum wage. You can have one juice box from the fridge. |
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sparqui
Dog tired
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Posts: 5152
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:31 am Post subject: |
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And pray tell what the long list of qualities Scheer has to earn a $200+ salary, Ottawa apartment and Gatineau summer home, and all sorts of entertainment expenses? Speaker of the House is a plumb appointment not dependent on merit but vote. Let's not even start on Senate appointments.
Class discrepancies are still alive and kicking. Too bad more working people didn't recognize that. Unionization was about recognizing the value of all workers and respecting their rights to fair work conditions and decent wages. It sickens me to see so called progressive people denigrate unionized workers. It basically extends to a denigration of all workers who are not managers or executives.
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Sibjyn
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 25 May 2006
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Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| F. wrote: | | Now university lecturers: we all know they're just glorified babysitters. Those guys should be minimum wage. You can have one juice box from the fridge. |
They can bring their own juice from home. MY tax dollars shouldn't go to subsidize such frivolities. Become a manager if you want a free juice box. |
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bshmr
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 4004
Location: Central USA, Earth
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Sibjyn wrote: | | F. wrote: | | Now university lecturers: we all know they're just glorified babysitters. Those guys should be minimum wage. You can have one juice box from the fridge. |
They can bring their own juice from home. MY tax dollars shouldn't go to subsidize such frivolities. Become a manager if you want a free juice box. |
That's dingy!! More pay plus free juice for a differing skill set and likely being more aggressive? Bullshit! Your rank has privileges and the like are counter-productive bullshit! IMO and in modern org-study. |
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Sibjyn
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Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 1120
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| You guys think that juice just grows on trees or something? These free juiceboxes to unionized layabouts are destroying our country! |
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Raos
volatilis vir
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5472
Location: Petropolis
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| So what's the deal with the rolling temporary strike actions city by city? Is the whole deal going to be like this, or is this gearing up for a full-blown strike? |
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abnormal
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 445
Location: somewhere over the rainbow
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| DSquared wrote: | | abnormal wrote: | | And you can't depend on there being enough future workers to pay the bills. I don't have Canadian figures handy but I expect they're not that different from the US. In 1940, there were 42 workers per retiree. In 1950, the ratio was 16-to-1. Today, there are 3.3 workers per retiree, and within 40 years, it’s projected that there will be just two workers per retiree. |
In the US, there is a maximum you will pay into social security no matter how much money you make, and I believe there is a similar thing here with the CPP. If you lift the cap and make the payment more progressive, you come up with more money for your retirees. |
No question that if you lift the cap things will improve. However, the problem is with the demographics - if retirees haven't contributed enough to date there aren't going to be enough workers in the future to make up the shortfall.
On the subject of CPP, I keep coming back to the fact that then Minister of Finance Martin fired his chief actuary because he didn't like the answers he was being given and Mr. Desault refused to cave and produce the answers Martin wanted. Having said that my understanding is that it's in far better shape than Social Security. The Trustees there have issued warnings about the state of that plan. |
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abnormal
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 445
Location: somewhere over the rainbow
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Raos wrote: | | abnormal wrote: | | Raos wrote: | | The declining business shouldn't be a grave issue for a properly managed pension plan since that's (again, assuming proper management) based on, and supported by, the current work force, not the hypothetical workforce a few decades down the line. |
Unfortunately it's completely at odds with the NDP statement that CPP and GIS payments should be increased. |
I don't follow, how so? |
Unless I misunderstood the NDP proposal, the idea was to immediately increase CPP payments for all current and future employees. Simply increasing contributions by the same amount would make up the resulting shortfall for two reasons: (i) current retirees wouldn't be making any contributions towards their increased pension benefits and (ii) existing workers who are anywhere near retirement will only make contributions for a relatively short time before they retire and start collecting the increased benefits.
| Quote: | | If current payments won't be enough to support the pensions of current workers when they retire in the future, then payments should be increased and it's still the current workforce paying for their own pensions irrespective of the size of the workforce when they retire. |
It's not that simple - older workers won't make additional contributions for long enough to pay for their own pensions. Unless you want to tell the 64 year old that they won't benefit from the increase in CPP payments a year from now when he retires there is no possible way his increased contributions for one year will fund his increased benefits. |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Raos wrote: | | So what's the deal with the rolling temporary strike actions city by city? Is the whole deal going to be like this, or is this gearing up for a full-blown strike? |
My understanding is that this is all that is planned for now, but the union retains the right to ramp it up further.
_________________
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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Raos
volatilis vir
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5472
Location: Petropolis
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:08 am Post subject: |
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That's what I thought. Any insight on why there was so much planning around making sure welfare/pension checks were getting special treatment when nothing's really getting held up more than a day, yet, anyway?
| abnormal wrote: | | Unless I misunderstood the NDP proposal, the idea was to immediately increase CPP payments for all current and future employees. Simply increasing contributions [. . .] |
Yeah, I get that it wouldn't be entirely "self funded" and you'd have current workers picking up some of the underfunded slack, but if it's a correction getting things back on track it's not like entirely abandoning the idea of the the current workforce contributing to their own future pensions.
And how much of a correction of the current workforce subsidizing current pensions would it even be? If the payments have been inadequate to service pensions for workers now retiring, then presumably they're inadequate for current workers to service their future pensions. Even if you leave current and near retirees out to dry with underfunded pensions that don't provide sufficient benefits, current workers would still need to pay more now to not have the same problem when they retire. Plus, whenever the sustainability of CPP is question, isn't the dire warning that it's only going to be solvent for another 20-30 years or some such? That doesn't make it sound like the current workforce would need to contribute much beyond a 'sustainably self-funded' rate to cover the shortfall from prior underfunding, even with the demographic shift. |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Raos wrote: | | That's what I thought. Any insight on why there was so much planning around making sure welfare/pension checks were getting special treatment when nothing's really getting held up more than a day, yet, anyway? |
Because of that "yet". No one really knows how long the strike will last, and for how long it will remain a rotating strike rather than a full blown strike. Better to make preparations and have them be unnecessary than face the consequences of hundreds of thousands of people potentially unable to make rent payments.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | That's what I thought. Any insight on why there was so much planning around making sure welfare/pension checks were getting special treatment when nothing's really getting held up more than a day, yet, anyway?
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And when the whole objective is supposed to be to create inconvenience and discomfort?
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | | Quote: | That's what I thought. Any insight on why there was so much planning around making sure welfare/pension checks were getting special treatment when nothing's really getting held up more than a day, yet, anyway?
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And when the whole objective is supposed to be to create inconvenience and discomfort? |
The objective is to create inconvenience and discomfort for the employer not for the public. In fact, striking public sector or customer service unions generally do what they can to minimize public inconvenience and discomfort because public support can help to win a strike.
_________________
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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What's at stake?
| Quote: | But defending postal workers from the ravages of roll-back bargaining is not the only reason to actively support this strike. CUPW has been amongst the most progressive practitioners of social unionism in Canadian history. It has a long history of fighting for women's rights, human rights, peace and social justice, played a major role in the fight against free trade and has been in the forefront of international solidarity movements. Maternity leave is now taken for granted in Canada but without the historic 1981 CUPW strike -- lasting 42 days -- we might not have it at all.
Virtually every progressive piece of legislation in the country from Medicare, to unemployment insurance, from public education and labour standards, were brought about in large part because unions and their members fought hard to make them happen. This historic role of unions is one that the majority of Canadians know very little about. To a large extent unions have no one but themselves to blame. Over the past 25 years, they -- especially public service unions -- allowed themselves to be framed by the right as greedy, over-paid, under-worked and privileged. That message has played into the race-to-the-bottom mentality of many non-union workers who too often attack their unionized counterparts for the job security and rights they can only dream of.
I often try to imagine how different the situation might be if unions had dedicated resources to educating the public over the past two decades about their role in making Canada one of the best places in the world to live. Because they didn't, they will now be asking support from a public that has been subjected to years of anti-union propaganda. And that means that they -- starting with the postal workers -- will need our help even more. |
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This is pre-eminently the time, to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself-Franklin Delano Roosevelt |
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Raos
volatilis vir
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5472
Location: Petropolis
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| TS. wrote: | | Because of that "yet". No one really knows how long the strike will last, and for how long it will remain a rotating strike rather than a full blown strike. |
I know! Canada Post just turned it into a full lock-out | Quote: | After days of rotating strikes by postal workers, Canada Post has suspended operations across the country.
[. . .]
"If we allow the uncertainty created by the rotating strikes to continue, our ability to remain financially self-sufficient and not become a burden on Canadian taxpayers will be in jeopardy."
The lockout came as a surprise to postal workers on the job in Vancouver shortly after 8 p.m. PT, said Robert Mulvin, president of the CUPW local.
"It sounded like mayhem. People were being ushered out of the building … unannounced to the union at any point before then," he said.
"Plants are jammed with mail right now…basically it looks like they filled the facilities with mail and then locked the door, with no regard for the customer at all."
The rotating strikes have been effective in drawing attention to the postal workers' cause without overly disrupting mail delivery, he said.
"They wanted to push us into a full-scale strike, and instead of that they locked us out."
Mulvin said he believes Canada Post's goal is to have the unionized workers legislated back and accuses the management of not bargaining in good faith.
Despite the lockout, Mulvin said, an agreement remains in place to deliver pension cheques and other government payments.
Hundreds of workers who arrived at the Gateway Postal Facility in Mississauga, Ont., ready to work at 11:30 p.m. were greeted by management and given written notice that they were locked out. |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The objective is to create inconvenience and discomfort for the employer not for the public. |
It is? I thought it was to create inconvenience for the public, which they then visit upon the employer.
During the last garbage strike, members of the public who tried to bring their own garbage to the dump were met by union members, who arbitrarily allowed only one person through every fifteen minutes. How did that create more inconvenience for the City than it did for the public??
For that matter, how was that in any way consistent with your claim that " striking public sector or customer service unions generally do what they can to minimize public inconvenience and discomfort".
Not only did they not minimize it, they went out of their way to CREATE it. Any thoughts on that?
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | | Quote: | | The objective is to create inconvenience and discomfort for the employer not for the public. |
It is? I thought it was to create inconvenience for the public, which they then visit upon the employer.
During the last garbage strike, members of the public who tried to bring their own garbage to the dump were met by union members, who arbitrarily allowed only one person through every fifteen minutes. How did that create more inconvenience for the City than it did for the public??
For that matter, how was that in any way consistent with your claim that " striking public sector or customer service unions generally do what they can to minimize public inconvenience and discomfort".
Not only did they not minimize it, they went out of their way to CREATE it. Any thoughts on that? |
The garbage strike was different because to allow citizens to drop off garbage would be essentially to see the same service performed by the outside workers being performed by someone else. Also known as strike breaking or scabbing.
Minimizing disruption doesn't mean making the strike ineffective. It means making sure that the strike is made effective in the least disruptive way possible.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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Trust me, ordinary people (or "scabs" as you call them) having to haul their own stinky trash in the backseat of their car would have still been effective.
But none of that really addresses why the posties would deliver some mail but not other mail. If they want to ensure that this strike doesn't inconvenience people any more than necessary, why not deliver all mail? Or none?
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thwap
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4564
Location: Hamilton
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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Um, ... you can't figure it out?
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Man! I hate them fancy-lads! |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Um, it would be a public relations nightmare if seniors didn't get their pension cheques? People would turn on the Union?
That's my guess, though why that's any worse than, say, people being unable to get to their job during a transit strike I'm not sure.
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