EnMasse

[ephemeral]

... and need to be treated like children.

(Actually, I don't believe that even children should be treated like this). Anyway, here's the link and obligatory quote:

Punishment For Pregnant Women

[morningstar]

they are getting more desperate in their war against women. happily, with the y chromosome steadily losing genetic material with each generation, in 10,000 years it is thought that men will no longer be fertile.

scientists have been able to combine the genetic material from 2 eggs to grow a perfectly normal baby something. it would seem that the x chromosome is stronger than ever.
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surely goodness and mercy can follow us all the days of our lives

[The Evil Twin]

[morningstar]

i was just reading 'are men necessary' by maurreen dowd
she references this stuff nicely

sorry, i've returned the book

i often can't link anything because it is book stuff or my own obscure notes.
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surely goodness and mercy can follow us all the days of our lives

[Tehanu]

There was a study that showed that the Y-chormosome was losing about 5 genes every million years. However, according to a research team from the MIT the Y-chromosome is in fact able to repair itself, so it'll likely be with us for a while.

[ShyViolet]

[DSquared]

[Tehanu]

Also, with losing five genes every million years, even without any kind of self-repair, with 78 genes it would take 15+ million years for the Y-chromosome to completely wither away.

So there are likely other things we should be worrying about more.

ETA: Back to the thread title. The idea that pregnant women can be legally liable for behaviour that may or may not endanger the fetus is highly questionable, to say the least. Legally, this strikes me as yet another example of trying to define a fetus as a separate human being, so I always suspect an anti-abortion motive behind this kind of initiative.

[The Evil Twin]

[ephemeral]

[F.]

[ickydicky]

[Simon Vallée]

[Tehanu]

Can I recommend laying off the generalisations? Male violence has been a bit of a hot topic here for the last few days and I'd suggest that if we want to talk about it, a serious thread would be a good idea, rather than comments in various places ... and that serious thread should also preclude personal attacks.

[Senor Magoo]

[Tehanu]

Magoo, I've told you a million times not to exaggerate.

[morningstar]

just like misogyny, male violence is a pervasive problem that is imbedded in virtually every culture in the world. it is imbedded in human history and effects almost every aspect of human life on the planet.

if women were going to have even a shred of the problem with violence that men have, i would suggest that our human history would be quite different looking. something tells me that it would have surfaced as a global issue in a big way in 10,000 years.

i think that when male violence and misogyny rear their pesky little heads in a variety of threads dealing with social justice, feminism, etc., it is only a testament to the fact that they are such intractable human problems.
people who get all sensitive when these topics run as a subtext to so much discussion should study herstory much more thoroughly.

i don't think that it is honest or healthy to attempt to corral these difficult topics into one place as if they were sideissues. they are the essence of much of the misery in the world and need to be included everywhere.

generalizing is the only way to intelligently discuss broad issues with few words. otherwise you can't have overview, trends, history. you can nitpick details forever without ever really being truthful.
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surely goodness and mercy can follow us all the days of our lives

[Tehanu]

Oh, I certainly agree about the pervasiveness and destructiveness of violent males (note how reversing the words makes a difference?). I'm just getting a bit frustrated at seeing thread after thread derailed. Okay, that's maybe a slight exaggeration, but it's been a bit tiresome!

[Simon Vallée]

There is no such thing as male violence, violence is violence, whether the perpetrator is male, female or other. As the more physically strong gender, men have emerged as the dominant wielder of physical violence, the kind of violence that is the most direct and evident, women tending towards more subtle psychological violence. This doesn't mean that physical violence is "male violence" or that psychological violence is "female violence", violence has no gender, or worse, that women committing physical violence are merely "tainted" by "male violence".
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Québécois, socialist, sovereignist and metalhead.

[Corey]

[Diane Demorney]

Could we please try and stay on topic? This is the feminism forum after all. /mod hat off
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Scissors cuts paper. Paper covers rock. Rock crushes lizard. Lizard poisons Spock. Spock smashes scissors. Scissors decapitates lizard. Lizard eats paper. Paper disproves Spock. Spock vaporizes rock. And as it always has, rock crushes scissors.

[Loretta]

[sparqui]

Thanks for those fantastic links Loretta. It's a much needed perspective that we rarely hear about.
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“If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a tractor.”

-- Gilles Duceppe

[Tehanu]

After years of scaremongering, a British study says that a) a small amount drinking during pregnancy appears to do no harm and interestingly b) children of mothers who drank small amounts scored higher on cognitive tests and behaved better, than children whose mothers drank no alcohol.

I doubt that drinking during pregnancy is all that great, but maybe some of the hysteria around it may abate with this news. I have seen super-crazy excessiveness around this issue, from completely over-the-top patriarchal signs in bar and restaurant washrooms, to having female friends with slight pot bellies (in one case with a hernia) being told outright that the fact they had a beer or glass of wine in their hand was hurting their baby, and how dare they?

[TS.]

Let's bear in mind that this is just one study. Other studies have reached opposite conclusions. Clearly more research is required.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

[sparqui]

It doesn't take away from the fact that women, whether pregnant or not, are subjected to paternalistic advice on how they should behave.
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“If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a tractor.”

-- Gilles Duceppe

[TS.]

[Senor Magoo]

[Willow]

I definitely do not believe that anyone has the right to dictate to me what I should or should not be doing. However, while working at a liquor store you do run into some situations that make you cringe. One young woman was pregnant, buying Southern Comfort, and telling me that she named her previous daughter "Comfortable" because that was what she was drinking then too. FAS is on the rise. I find it quite depressing to see so many of these cases have multiple children, ending up in the welfare system with no hope because their little brains have been fried while in the womb. And YES, the drunken partner who got her pregnant is also responsible. If you are planning to bring your child to full term, should you not be responsible to ensure it has a healthy start? If you have no desire to be healthy, or can't because of addiction, abortion should be the other option. I find it quite selfish to continue with a pregnancy, yet continue destructive behavior for the baby. I am sure that there are all kinds of implications and reasons why this could not be done, but I can see why people suggest various things to protect the fetus. I am excluding the pro-lifers who talk about the sanctity of life then couldn't give a shit less once that baby is born.
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There is a wisdom of the head, and....a wisdom of the heart. Charles Dickens

[Senor Magoo]

[Willow]

I think if he wants to drink and screw around - he should be using a condom, go on the pill for men, get a vasectomy.... Be responsible for the offspring he produces as well. He should not be dictating to her how she should behave. And as for her part - same thing - if you don't want to, or can't live a healthy lifestyle - go on the pill, use condoms, get an iud....
I understand that poverty and lack of education plays a major part in this. Oh, and the Catholic church. That is why its so damn depressing to see all the funding slashed for women and childrens groups. The religious zealots and their anti-abortion campaigns I'm sure are a factor. Maybe more would choose an abortion if there weren't pressured with big doses of guilt to have the baby.
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There is a wisdom of the head, and....a wisdom of the heart. Charles Dickens

[bshmr]

Let's not mistake correlation for causation. For example, parents who are capable of light drinking probably have other behaviors as well as genetics which will be found responsible for 'positive differences' in cognitive behavior.