EnMasse

leftcoastguy · Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:18 am Post subject:

Talking about sentences for prominent people didn't Colin Thatcher serve his full 20 or 25 years for arranging the killing of his wife. One thing I don't comprehend is the situation of the children in a family that is involved with murder. I mean if my Dad had killed my Mom I'm sure I would not want to have anything more to do with him.

Usually I don't like to pay too much attention to murder trials but as gruesome as it seems like it is going to be, I am going to try and follow the Pickton trial. I had not heard many of the details prior to the commencement of the trial which began today, however I am overwhelmed by what I heard on the news this evening. Apparently the accused told the police that he had killed 49 women but that he wanted to make it an even 50, and he also told the police that they were slow in tracking him down. Some of the graphic details are unbelievably sick. And as difficult as it is, it's important to keep remembering that Willie Pickton has not been convicted yet. If convicted though he will become, at least in North America, the worst serial killer ever to have existed.

One thing Canada, BC, and the Lower Mainland could do is create a legal red light where street workers would hopefully have more protection.

I have been driving through East Vancouver occasionally at nite recently due to an erratic work schedule and I often see women on the steet corners - they look so vulnerable and they are. Sad

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Hephaestion · Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:57 am Post subject:

Ummm.... not to be indelicate, but I heard on the radio tonight that the Crown is alleging that Pickton killed, dismembered and then "disposed" of the bodies. Does anyone know how this "disposal" was allegedly carried out? I mean... pigs are carniverous...

And... errr... what exactly happened with the pigs from Pickton's farm? I mean, he wasn't selling to local food outlets, was he?

Sorry ta be, like, totally sick and all, but I've been wondering this for awhile now.
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Norse of 60 · Kokanee Kid Joined: 11 Apr 2006 Posts: 3711

Hephaestion · Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:46 am Post subject:

Gawd, if I had taken, and then eaten, pork from Pickton, I would *still* be puking. Talk about yer BSE scares...
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edward · *BANNED* Joined: 10 Jan 2007 Posts: 227

edward · *BANNED* Joined: 10 Jan 2007 Posts: 227

Actually I feel if Pickton is found guilty of all that is being alledged in this thread, then I feel the only course of action would be to execute him. I know Canada does not have a death penalty, but it does not change my feeling about this person. In my opinion there is no rehabilitation possible for such a person.

lagatta · Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:58 pm Post subject:

Oh cripes, a death penalty advocate. Rolling Eyes

Mise à part all the reasons democratic countries have eliminated the death penalty, another reason to oppose it in this particular horrific case is that dead men don't tell tales.

Pickton obviously couldn't have done this by himself.

anne cameron · Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:22 pm Post subject:

Picton, if proven guilty, will NOT be the worst serial killer in North American history. There are a couple of creeps in the USA who hold that dubious honour, by their admission, something like 300 mostly homeless railway "bums" have been killed.

Picton's pork was sold "at the farm gate", and there is every chance the sausages were not exclusively pork. There are a couple of cases where wood chippers have been used to reduce the human body to a wet ground meat which was then fed to pigs; like us, pigs are omnivorous and just as we don't hesitate to eat them, they don't hesitate to eat us. Fair's fair, on that level, I guess.

Last night's news was the first I'd heard of the use of a gun, but they found , it seems, a couple of skulls in a bucket and both women had died of gunshot wounds to the head. I have felt all along that scrawny Willy couldn't have done this alone, but would have needed help, and I still think he had assistance but if he used a gun even he could have done it alone. Early on the operator of a reducation plant hotly denied that any parts or portions of a human had arrived with the leftovers of the pig slaughters but my question was how would he know, they just dump the stuff (I think they make dog food, cat food, fish food, etc., from the stuff), they don't examine each bone to see where it grew.

The police aren't going to come out of this one looking like the bright lights on the CSI and "criminal minds" programmes on TV. They blundered all the way through and I feel it was because they , like Rhett Butler, just did not give a damn. After all, they were "just" sex trade workers, many of them addicts and, hey, at least it got them off the street.

The TV last night actually had the bad taste to interview the teen-aged daughter of one of the victims. This tragedy is horrific enough, but the media scrum reminds me of what must have gone on when the chipper fed the slurry to the eager snouts of the swine.

That child should never have been shown on TV!! She went to the courthouse to try to find out what happened to her mom, she should have been protected, not used as a public display.

edward · *BANNED* Joined: 10 Jan 2007 Posts: 227

anne cameron · Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject:

I guess it satisfied what passes for analysis with you.

Cavalier disregard for marginalized women is such an EASY approach to life. Requires absolutely no thought at all.

Q*Bert · Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:22 am Post subject:

leftcoastguy · Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:29 am Post subject:

leftcoastguy · Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:48 am Post subject:

Actually for those who are interested the name of the book is:

Bad Date: The Lost Girls of Vancouver’s Low Track
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anne cameron · Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject:

This suggestion the jury pay particular attention to Picton's manner of speaking and his intellectual capacity... does that mean someone is going to bring "diminished capacity" into the picture?

I don't know for sure Picton is guilty, the trial has just started, but whoever it is who DID slaughter so many women was at least able to outsmart the police for a lot of years.

One of the scariest things about doing research into serial killers is that, unlike the warped genius types so preferred by Hollywood, most of them are really dim bulbs.

Norse of 60 · Kokanee Kid Joined: 11 Apr 2006 Posts: 3711

anne cameron · Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:24 pm Post subject:

When police in Quebec tried to bring charges against a motorcycle gang the jurors were so intimidated they made it clear they weren't going to convict and I think the crown actually dropped the charges. And the crowd at Piggy's Palace was reported to have been swelled by large numbers of bikers. Are the jurors being protected or are they going to wind up intimidated? Considering the crowd he hung around with, Willie has no reason to divulge names of anyone who either helped him or knew what he was up to because his friends are a bigger threat than the police, the courts, or the prison system. And he might be dumb but I doubt he's THAT dumb, he's managed to keep his lip zipped for a while.

It's heart rending, really. Nearly two thousand women are missing in this country and the police are still maundering on about how hard it is to keep track of where marginal people are... thus putting most of the blame on those "marginal people" and avoiding any sort of real responsibility themselves.

And every one of the missing is sure to be somebody's daughter.

DSquared · Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:55 pm Post subject:

anne cameron · Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:52 am Post subject:

Aboriginals make up about one-tenth of the population of Canada. Of the almost 2000 missing women, 500 of them are aboriginal. That's more than double the number one would expect considering the percentage of population they are....

I guess if a person really WANTS to disappear there isn't much anyone can do. It would, however, be helpful if the police would admit there is something very nasty going on, and begin to address the problem.

Stuffing their heads in bodily orifices (orifii?) isn't helpful. Discounting women who happen to be sex workers isn't helpful. Giving the brushoff to concerned relatives isn't helpful. If two thousand supreme court judges dropped off the face of the earth on the 1st of February how long would it take for someone to say something? If 500 senators were to vanish like dust up a vacuum cleaner hose...???

These women were not abducted by aliens, they did not go up in a puff of smoke, they have not fallen into a bottomless chasm.

Except that cold one, the pit of police and public apathy.

Makwa · Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:13 am Post subject:

leftcoastguy · Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:14 am Post subject:

Anne

Excellent comments!

Thanks.

Cheers,
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leftcoastguy · Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:24 am Post subject:

So much for the idea that Canada is light on prison sentencing and/or parole for murder! Eh?

Early parole hearing denied for 1982 shooter
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anne cameron · Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:29 am Post subject:

Thank you, cousin, for the correction. You're correct, it makes the stats even more horrific, more gruesome.

And just in case your heart isn't cracking, check out the per centage of First Nations folk in prison... not because they're more criminal than the rest of us but because they can't burp without a cop climbing up their nose, and, because they don't have the money needed to get a good lawyer... then there's that unfortunate habit of telling the truth if they should do something and get caught!

Again, thanks, cousin.

leftcoastguy · Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject:

Nothing like a little publicity, well all right a lot of publicity, to make the police clean up their act. Rolling Eyes

leftcoastguy · Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject:

After hearing some of the worst things imaginable that has happened in Canada during my lifetime this past week, how important is it for us to continue to say that Willie Pickton is innocent until the jurors have deliberated? Do we really need to wait for the final verdict to be in before we comment on this person? Is is OK to secretly believe that Pickton is the most evil person alive in Canada and yet not say so publically? This innocent until proven guilty thingie we have going in Canada - is it for real or is it a myth? And if it is a myth what does this say about us as Canadians?
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sam · Fulltime enMasse Member Joined: 21 Jun 2006 Posts: 465

lagatta · Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:22 pm Post subject:

Well, as for "most evil person alive", he sure seems to be covering up for some others. One could perhaps say "confessed killer" - which would leave open a) how such a confession was extracted and b) his state of mental health, neither of which have been established.

(I have a fairly "evil" person out in the streets in this town, or somewhere nearby, though the reason she got off with such a light sentence has more to do with police bungling than anything else).

Norse of 60 · Kokanee Kid Joined: 11 Apr 2006 Posts: 3711

m0nkyman · Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject:

I believe he's guilty. Whether someone or some other people are also guilty is up for debate.

Now, whether his guilt can be proved in court is a completely and utterly seperate question. If I was on the jury, I could quite firmly believe in his guilt, but still vote for acquittal if the prosecution fails to PROVE it beyond a reasonable doubt.
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lagatta · Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject:

An uncle of mine was accused, and falsely convicted, of a serious but non-violent crime over a decade ago. He actually saw a bit of time in the slammer before the case was overturned. Although he has managed to clear everything, it caused permanent harm in terms of career and physical health. This happens a lot more often than you might think.

Oh, I certainly think Picton was involved, but now I think he actually wants to "take the fall" for murders he may not have committed. It is essential to find out who else was involved ... and who knew about it and didn't speak up.

anne cameron · Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:11 pm Post subject:

If someone, or several someones other than Picton was or were involved I don't think they'll learn about it from Willie. I'm actually just a tad surprised he made it to court. I thought he'd get offed in prison just to ensure he didn't name some names

In QUebec jurors were so intimidated they let it be known they would not convict regardless of evidence against a biker gang. Trial was dropped.

We're told the parties at Piggy's Palace included bikers. And cops. Even some politicians. Willie might not be a rocket scientist but he's not stupid, he stayed several jumps ahead of Officer Cheerful and Constable Friendly for a lot of years. Dim or not he didn't drop one slim hint the whole time. His friends, dangerous as they are, have their own code, of sorts, and so far they think Willie can be trusted to be a clam. So Willie gets to stay alive.

Willie was not alone on that piece of property, his brother lived in a house not really all that far from the motor home or trailer or whatever it was where Willie stayed and the brother was raised on the farm, as was a sister who lived elsewhere. They are out of the country right now, understandably avoiding the media circus and all questions from reporters and others.

I don't trust the blue wall, or the red serge one, either. Just last month we had two reports of two different cops arrested for kiddie porn and the opinion of the public regarding the Vancouver cops is so low even Jamie Graham had to call a news conference to apologize for a "troply" photo, like a mild Abu Ghraib photo of officers with a career ankle biter.

I'm not trying to be the online version of Patricia Cornwall or to try to match her piece of rambling about Jack the Ripper but I do suggest we aren't going to know the "full" story because Willie isn't stupid and would prefer to die of old age in a warm cell with TV and regular meals than be shanked, and because there are some pretty powerful (in their own warped way) folks who don't want to be the focus of the media circus.

We're told we won't get an investigation into police inactivity until AFTER Willie's trial. Uh huh. And then he has, what, another trial or two to account for the rest of the missing women. Uh huh. And then IF it ever happens, which I doubt, the investigation will not be a civilian board of review, it will be more cops winking at cops over a pile of unexamined evidence, then going to Nuffy's for donuts.

These are, after all, the highly trained investigative experts who took some twentyfive years of careful whatever-it-is-they-did to totally bungle the Air India explosion. And alongside of THAT bloody mess I think it speaks to our own inequities and racism that some are saying Willie is the "worst mass murderer" in Canadian history. He's not. He's down the list a ways, behind the Air India bombers and all the churches which helped commit genocide , mostly against innocent little children as young as age three.

You think WIllie is a monster? I wish I could remember the name of the fucker who was the doctor at Alert Bay and , year after year, did surgery with inadequate anaesthetic or none at all and might well have committed murder on the operating table. Now there's a monster for you! Or how about the nun in Port Alberni who threw a child out a second floor window? And why has the Vancouver Club never been properly investigated? Because so many "nice" wealthy men hang out there?

Willie raised pigs. He's dim. But he isn't the most monstrous monster in history. For that look to the governments which STILL refuse to do fuck all to ameliorate in any way the absolutely hopeless conditions in which First Nations children are trapped. And they're all "nice" men too, I suppose. Alongside them Willie the pig farmer is really small spuds.

In BC the court just chucked a First Nations great-grandma in jail for blockading to save a rare ecology from being wiped out by a totally unnecessary road up to the Olympic rah rah. She refused to apologize and stands by her actions so she's off to the slammer.

And not one CEO of one company convicted of environmental disasters has ever done even one day! And no, no human life was lost. But rare lives will be squandered for a frikken road so the ones with plenty of disposable income can drive their beamers up to watch some athletes who excell at games. GAMES!

Willie is looking less awful all the time.

And excuse me all to hell and back. I am sorry for those family members who are actually grieving for lost loved ones but I have to tell you I don't really feel much of anything except contempt for people who are suddenly leaping into the spotlight with tales of woe and then you find out that for seven or eight years nobody in the family even tried to look for the missing relative.

Well, I guess at some point we all wanted to run away from home and join the circus and now there's one playing in New Westminster.

leftcoastguy · Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:27 am Post subject:

leftcoastguy · Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:43 am Post subject:

This does seems bizarre.

3 others arrested in Pickton probe, jury told
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leftcoastguy · Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:10 am Post subject:

What a brilliant article! Clap, Clap

God I love this writer. Smile

Unfortunately most Canadians will never read what she writes.

leftcoastguy · Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:24 am Post subject:

What possible reason is this person allowed to go free in our society if upon witnessing a despicable crime being committed she did not report it to the police? Is there not some law that says one has to report these things? Or did she report it?

Norse of 60 · Kokanee Kid Joined: 11 Apr 2006 Posts: 3711

leftcoastguy · Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject:

These videos must be having a huge impact on the jury.

Pickton's performance for the camera Accused killer told undercover Mountie he hoped to raise gruesome tally to 75
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leftcoastguy · Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:19 am Post subject:

Gee, I wonder if Willie has any relatives in Russia!

Tehanu · Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:57 pm Post subject:

The Pickton trial is about to move to closing arguments.

TS. · Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject:

Because to officialdom missing sex workers rate lower than a tabby cat up a tree.
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anne cameron · Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:17 pm Post subject:

So many people are so disillusioned with the police, whether provincial, city, or Mounties, that I wonder if anything can be done to fix what looks like a huge problem.

I think the tabby cat would get more attention, and kinder treatment, and the horrific abuse of power demonstrated at YVR when a guy was tazered and them died with four big burly bozo's holding him down has done nothing to improve the situation of distrust which is starting to be very close to outright fear of the cops.

I can't believe nobody thought to just walk up to the guy with a paper cup of tea, hand it to him and ask "Russki?" to which he could reply "Polski" and someone could have nodded and phoned for a translater. Even a bottle of water would have been helpful.

When the Picton investigation was in full swing and the evening TV news had pictures off all those archeology students sifting barnyard dirt in search of scraps of "forensic evidence" someone in town shook his head and said "they've been watching too much TV". Well, I suspect the public isn't alone in watching too much TV, the cops seem to have watched a lot of it and to have decided to base their behaviour on the bullshit brutality shown in some of the programmes.

And this blanket of silence from officialdom is not going to make anyone feel reassured that "they" aren't just flatout looking to get "us" any way they can.

Sad. very sad.

leftcoastguy · Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:55 pm Post subject:

Jury is out.
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TS. · Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:09 pm Post subject:

They will probably be out for a long time. Six first degree murder charges, and a case based on forensic evidence and witnesses with credibility issues will likely mean long deliberations.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

leftcoastguy · Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:19 am Post subject:

Jury has been out for a while now. At least one person has some doubts.
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