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Pickton Trial To Start In January
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leftcoastguy
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what purpose other than to delay the public inquiry.


Is is so they can put Pickton into the serial killer record book?

Pickton has been given the maximum sentence possible has he not, so an additional trial is not going to give him another day in jail.
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TS.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or, because the families want to see the murders of their daughter tried?
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leftcoastguy
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the legal mumbo-jumbo. Everyone knows Pickton is invoved with all those murders, but it will not keep him in jail any longer. And since when did the prosecutors give a shit for poor sex-trade workers and their families in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside?
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No Yards
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whichever the case, I see no good reason that the second trial should delay the public inquiry.

They can proceed at the same time, as once the jury is picked and given their instructions to keep away from the news until the trial is over, then what difference does it make?
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DSquared
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No Yards wrote:
Whichever the case, I see no good reason that the second trial should delay the public inquiry.

They can proceed at the same time, as once the jury is picked and given their instructions to keep away from the news until the trial is over, then what difference does it make?


There's a possibility that anything coming out in the public inquiry could jeapordise the legal proceedings against Pickton.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scott wrote:
Pickton was charged with 26 murders. The judge severed the charges into a set of six (done) and another 20 (yet to come). When this happened I assumed that the evidence was stronger for the six. A statement by one of the prosecutors after the trial indicated that this is not the case.


According to what I've heard, the judge figured that trying to deal with 26 murder cases simultaneously would totally snow the jury under with evidence -- a lot of it very demanding and complex to understand -- and thereforte increase the liklihood of misunderstanding(s) and possible opportunities for a mistrial or avenues for appeal.

Sounds emminently reasonable to me.
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anne cameron
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately that brings us back to "when" and the fact the public inquiry is going to have to wait until after............. and that brings me back to the feeling that it's all wheel-spinning and time wasting and part of an attempt to make sure the dust of time obscures the entire picture so that NO real investigation will ever happen and NO responsibility will be shouldered.
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No Yards
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DSquared wrote:
No Yards wrote:
Whichever the case, I see no good reason that the second trial should delay the public inquiry.

They can proceed at the same time, as once the jury is picked and given their instructions to keep away from the news until the trial is over, then what difference does it make?


There's a possibility that anything coming out in the public inquiry could jeapordise the legal proceedings against Pickton.


That's why they might need to wait for the jury to be picked and given their orders to refrain from media and discussions regarding the case ... but once that part is done, there is no more danger than normal of one of the jurors reading a news paper and seeing something they shouldn't have.
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scott
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess is that the second trial will proceed a lot more quickly than the first. Pickton has been put away so a vigorous defence is moot. Evidence may come out at the second trial that might illuminate the public enquiry. Whether it comes sooner or later, I don't think that a public enquiry can be avoided, much as the powers that be might want to avoid one.
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leftcoastguy
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But there are advantages in having it occur sooner, rather than later.

If these delays to hold a public inquiry keep happening, no one is going to be around to testify, nor possibly pay a price for their fuckups.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My understanding is that there were probably many more victims than evidence that they can attach to Pickton. I fully understand the families of the 20 women wanting a trial to proceed but I also think an inquiry is crucial for finding out the complete story and possibly giving some closure to those families who lost loved ones who were not identified through the course of the Pickton investigation.

My faith in uncovering further truths through public inquiries has grown immensely with the Arar and Air India processes.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sparqui wrote:
My understanding is that there were probably many more victims than evidence that they can attach to Pickton.


The list of missing women officially connected with this case has varied over the years but has hovered around 50 recently. Some relatives of the 50 (not included in the 26) missing women have been told that the DNA of their relative has been found on the Pickton farm. My understanding is that DNA evidence alone is not enough for a murder conviction. I suppose that there are some whose DNA was never found. The whole farm was dug up and sifted by archaeologists but f I am not mistaken parts of the original Pickton farm were sold off for housing development prior to the search and not dug up.
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TS.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scott wrote:
My understanding is that DNA evidence alone is not enough for a murder conviction.

You are right. All DNA alone can tell you is that the person what at the place where the DNA was found, but nothing more than that. For murder you need to prove the act of killing and the intent to kill (or the intent to cause such grievous bodily harm that a person ought to have known might kill).
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well this is just peachy. The Crown is appealling Pickton's conviction of second degree murder! Apparently this is because they believe he should have been convicted of first degree.

Quote:
CBC B.C. Attorney General Wally Oppal says the Crown will appeal Robert Pickton's second-degree murder convictions, partly because he has always believed Pickton planned to kill his victims.

But the attorney general said there is also a second reason for the appeal based on a technical legal concern. If the defence appeals and a retrial is allowed, that trial would be based on second-degree murder — not the original first-degree murder charges.

With the 30-day appeal deadline only two days away, Oppal told the Canadian Press the Crown expects the defence will also file a notice of appeal of the former pig farmer's conviction.


More at link.
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anne cameron
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This kind of chess move does nothing at all to inspire confidence in the court system or to in any way heal the deep distrust many people feel with regard to the police inaction in the missing women situation.

They were saying something on the TV which I only half caught, but I think it was IF there is to be a new trial he's going to be charged with all 26 counts.

They've also arrested another guy for at least two and possibly four murders of sex trade workers in the Fraser Valley.

It's open season on women.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anne cameron wrote:
They've also arrested another guy for at least two and possibly four murders of sex trade workers in the Fraser Valley.


Yeah. Was it just me, or did it seem like Gloria Macaroni and Ian Handsomemanthing seemed to be positively slavering over this latest story?

While watching "The Simpsons" and "Arrested Development" I counted eight different "coming up on the news at 6:00" promos with Macaroni that all consisted of only one thing -- Macaroni leaning into the camera with a gleam in her eye and breathlessly informing us that There. Might. Be. Another. Serial. Killer. Out. There.

It all seemed just a little too... eager... to me. Or was that just my imagination?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heph, don't you know that if it bleeds, it leads?
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anne cameron
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I thought Handsomemanthing was on the verge of gleeful. They had that same vocal timbre one often hears sports announcers use when the football game is starting to get ...well, it's never exciting, but you know what I mean...nudge nudge wink wink....
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Norse of 60
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TS. wrote:
Well this is just peachy. The Crown is appealling Pickton's conviction of second degree murder! Apparently this is because they believe he should have been convicted of first degree.


Not to demean the victims and their families but it sounds like an epic waste of cash and resources. They had 11 months to make their case to the first jury. Did they uncover new evidence all of a sudden? It's not like Picton will ever see the light of day again.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, the appeal won't be a new trial. It will be arguments before a panel of the BC Court of Appeal simply alleging that an error of law was made. There won't be a retrial on the facts (at least it's not likely, though the BC CA could order one).
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anne cameron
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think they're trying to get there before the defence files THEIR appeal of the conviction and demands a new trial or something. If the defence doesn't file their appeal the Crown appeal will probably just be let lapse.

or something.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The defense can demand a new trial all they want, but they can't just have one. They have to convince a panel of the BC Court of Appeal to order a new trial first, which means they have to convince the judge of a severe and irreparable error of law.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stay tuned for whether or not Pickton will be granted an appeal ... we'll be hearing in a few hours.

Quote:
... In January 2008, Pickton’s lawyers launched an appeal, arguing a new trial for six counts of second-degree murder should be granted.

... The Crown launched its own appeal, requesting a new trial on all 26 counts of first-degree murder if the original verdict is overturned and arguing that the judge erred when he separated the cases.

Crown prosecutors have publicly stated if the original verdict is allowed to stand, they will not pursue a conviction on the other 20 counts.

... But families of the dead women whose cases have not yet been heard in court are hoping the appeal will be successful, even if that means going through years of legal proceedings.

"We would hate to see Pickton actually win his appeal, but we want him to —only because that is the only way we foresee the other 20 girls getting justice," said Lori-Ann Ellis, whose sister-in-law, Cara Ellis, is one of the alleged victims in the outstanding cases.

... The appeal by the defence focused mainly on the instructions Justice Williams gave to the jury.

It contends Williams made a mistake when he initially instructed the jury they could convict Pickton if they were satisfied he acted either alone or in concert with others in the killings.

... The defence also argued the judge made a mistake when answering a question the jury asked on the sixth day of deliberations and by amending his instructions to them.


CBC.
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Tehanu
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No appeal. For now.

Quote:
B.C.'s Court of Appeal has upheld the conviction of Robert William Pickton on six counts of second-degree murder, but his case appears to be headed to the country's highest court.

In a split ruling issued on Thursday in Vancouver, two of the three Appeal Court judges agreed that Justice James Williams erred in his final instructions to the jury, but they ruled the mistakes were not serious enough to warrant a new trial.

Justice Ian Donald disagreed, concluding the judge and Crown lawyers created so much confusion over key points of law that the conviction should to be overturned.

... The split decision Thursday means the case will have an automatic right to a hearing before the Supreme Court of Canada.

... In a separate decision on the Crown's appeal, the three Appeal Court judges also ruled that Williams was wrong to split the trial in two, trying six of the murder counts separately from 20 other charges.

... Should the Supreme Court of Canada eventually rule in favour of the defence and grant Pickton a new trial, the B.C. court ruled the new trial should include all 26 counts.
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scott
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the ruling that it was wrong to split the 26 victims into a trial for 6 and a "non trial" for 20. It created two classes of victim, and offered no closure for the friends and relatives of the 20.

Picton's defence is appealing to the Supreme Court of Canada for a retrial.
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TS.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scott wrote:
I agree with the ruling that it was wrong to split the 26 victims into a trial for 6 and a "non trial" for 20. It created two classes of victim, and offered no closure for the friends and relatives of the 20.

Picton's defence is appealing to the Supreme Court of Canada for a retrial.

At the same time, it is rather unreasonable to expect the public to pay for a trial covering 26 charges of first degree murder. The original trial took 11 months for six charges. That means that a trial on 26 charges cold be reasonably expected to take in the neighbourhood of four years. That is four years of the time of a huge number of Crown Attorneys, four years of filings and motions, four years of articling students, each new class having to be familiarized with the case in order to be useful.

You also have to think about a jury. You can't reasonably expect people to give up four years of their lives and four years of income to sit on a jury.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Supreme Court of Canada agrees to hear Picton appeal
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Tehanu
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

More details:

Quote:
... The high court formally said Thursday it will hear the appeal and will allow arguments on issues that go beyond the grounds which were the subject of a dissent at the appeal court level.

... His lawyer [Gil McKinnon] argued at the British Columbia Court of Appeal that the trial judge's instructions left the jury confused on the question of whether Pickton acted alone.

... McKinnon now can expand his arguments beyond the question of the jury instructions.

"I wanted to expand the grounds by arguing some of the points raised in the majority's judgment which dismissed the appeal," he said.

"And there are three grounds specifically; one that the trial judge erred in not clarifying the jury's question before he responded to it, secondly that the main charge to the jury didn't contain any instruction on co-principal liability and third there were errors made with respect to similar-fact evidence."


Someone want to explain the legalese?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tehanu wrote:
More details:

Quote:
... The high court formally said Thursday it will hear the appeal and will allow arguments on issues that go beyond the grounds which were the subject of a dissent at the appeal court level.

... His lawyer [Gil McKinnon] argued at the British Columbia Court of Appeal that the trial judge's instructions left the jury confused on the question of whether Pickton acted alone.

... McKinnon now can expand his arguments beyond the question of the jury instructions.

"I wanted to expand the grounds by arguing some of the points raised in the majority's judgment which dismissed the appeal," he said.

"And there are three grounds specifically; one that the trial judge erred in not clarifying the jury's question before he responded to it, secondly that the main charge to the jury didn't contain any instruction on co-principal liability and third there were errors made with respect to similar-fact evidence."


Someone want to explain the legalese?

Well, the first ground essentially means that Picton is alleging that it was a reversible error for the judge not to seek clarification from the jury about the meaning of the question before he gave them an answer to it. The second one I don't know enough about criminal law to really understand, though it seems to be suggesting that the trial judge should have instructed the jury to consider that Picton may not have been acting alone. The third is alleging that the trial judge erred in law by admitting evidence that should have been inadmissible.
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DSquared
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Picton probe a "screw up:"

Quote:
Phillip Owen admitted to Rick Cluff of CBC Radio One's The Early Edition that the investigation was "a screw-up" and he wishes things had been handled differently.

"I wish I could do it over again. I think we all wish we could have done it over again," he told Cluff in an interview Friday morning.

"We did not cross all the t's and dot all the i's … and yeah, I'd like to do it over again and I'd like to do it differently."

On Wednesday, a B.C. Supreme Court judge stayed 20 remaining murder charges against Pickton and lifted several publication bans on information relating to the case.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not my usual fare but international mention contrasts with USAn. I am used to seeing numerous identical news reports of violence on a small scale -- 1 or 2, 5-6 (from all over), on most days as well as common fears and programs against of serial killers, but when an instance seems to occur MSM is relatively scarce.

New pictures in 'Grim Sleeper' case
US authorities release images of women suspected of being killed by an alleged serial killer.
Last Modified: 17 Dec 2010 06:04 GMT
Quote:
Police in the US city of Los Angeles have released photos found at the home of a man accused of the "Grim Sleeper" serial killings.

Close to 160 women are depicted in the images and police announced on Thursday that are trying to identify them.

...


http://english.aljazeera.net//news/americas/2010/12/201012174164243...

Google News lists CNN which has a bit more information (in text)
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/12/16/california.serial.killer/?hpt=C...
and a mere
"Results 1 – 10 of about 461 for lonnie franklin. (0.03 seconds) News"
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Tehanu
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I originally posted about this over on the Highway of Tears thread. More groups are pulling out of the Picton inquiry, citing their disappointment at the lack of resources.

Here's the thing: If you're going to have an inquiry about perceived indifference and neglect related to investigating missing women, do it properly. Otherwise, guess what? More perception of indifference and neglect.

But I guess we're talking the disappearance of prostitutes and aboriginal women, after all. Rolling Eyes

Interesting that it's Wally Oppal who's accusing the government of unfairness, isn't it?

Quote:
... On Tuesday, women's organizations LEAF, or West Coast Legal Education and Action Fund and the Ending Violence Association of B.C., also known as EVA, became the latest to formally withdraw from the inquiry, which is scheduled to begin hearings in Vancouver in October.

They were granted status together as a single participant and their decision means more than half the organizations that were granted status at the inquiry have bowed out due to a lack of government funding.

It has left commissioner Wally Oppal with a shrinking number of voices as he looks for ways to prevent the horrific case from repeating itself.

Oppal had recommended more than a dozen groups and coalitions like LEAF and EVA receive legal funding from the provincial government.

But the province has repeatedly refused, prompting a steady stream of announcements in the past several weeks from groups who say they can't afford to attend.

... Oppal has twice asked the province to fund a list of 13 participants, calling the government's decision the "height of unfairness."

However, Attorney General Barry Penner has said his ministry will only fund a lawyer for the families of Pickton's victims, insisting money is tight and resources are limited.

The groups that have dropped out include: a collection of sex-work organizations such as the WISH drop-in centre; the Native Women's Association of Canada; the Frank Paul Society; the Carrier Sekani Tribal Council; the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs; the Women's Equality and Security Coalition; and the Native Courtworker and Counselling Association of B.C.

Several others including the Downtown Eastside Women's Centre and the B.C. Civil Liberties Association have raised doubts about whether they'll participate, but have yet to make a final decision.

... Oppal will examine why Vancouver police and the RCMP failed to catch Pickton as he murdered sex workers from the city's Downtown Eastside until his arrest in 2002.

... Oppal will also hold a less-formal study commission that will look at broader issues surrounding missing and murdered women, including cases along the so-called Highway of Tears in northern B.C.


Lots more at the CBC
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DSquared
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Investigators were indifferent, according to one Mountie:

Quote:
Galliford joined the Missing Women's Task Force, which was hunting for a serial killer in the Vancouver area, in 2001.

She says she learned after joining the force there was a lot of information pointing to Pickton, but couldn't understand why police weren't trying to obtain a search warrant for his farm, where the remains of women were eventually found.

Galliford says there were internal squabbles and petty jealousies inside the task force, which was comprised of RCMP and Vancouver police officers.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concerns dismissed by "old guard," according to one officer:

Quote:
"It was a bit of a shell game. I don't think it was really going to turn into actual investigators actually doing this work."

Shenher, who was working the missing persons unit at the time, testified she communicated to her superiors that these women weren't seeing their families, weren't picking up their cheques and there was a problem.

"So that was hard because somehow that message just wasn't getting (through to the) old guard, if you want to call it that. That was definitely a problem," Shenher told the inquiry.

"It seemed as though the more experienced people there were around the table, the less appreciation there was that we were dealing with a serial killer."


Let's hear from a representative of the old boy's club:

Quote:
Kim Rossmo, a geographic profiler who was a member of the Vancouver Police Department at the time, told the Pickton inquiry Tuesday that he tried to set up a working group to investigate the disappearances in 1998 but the group was shut down a month later.

Rossmo, who is credited as being among the first officers to warn about the possibility of a serial killer, testified his concerns were dismissed by Insp. Fred Biddlecombe, who was the head of the major crimes unit at the time.

He said there were several people in the department interested in investigating further, but there was little support at the top.

"No police agency wants to have a serial murder case," Rossmo testified.

"It creates a lot of problems. It creates political pressure, it generates media interest, it might raise levels of community fear, it requires them to respond with a suitable level of resources."


Feared becoming a scapegoat:

Quote:
A Vancouver police officer has told the missing women inquiry she wrote an unpublished book about the botched police investigation into Robert Pickton in an effort to get the record straight and protect herself.

Det. Const. Lori Shenher told the inquiry looking into the investigation of the serial killer that she wrote the manuscript while on maternity leave.

Shenher says she wanted to write her story the way she remembered it and with her view on what she thought were the police failings, including her own.

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anne cameron
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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Location: tahsis, british columbia

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And now it's young men who are going missing... five or six of them in less than a year....
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sparqui
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Joined: 30 Apr 2006
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Location: Winnipeg

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anne cameron wrote:
And now it's young men who are going missing... five or six of them in less than a year....


I've noticed a few alerts on Facebook.
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