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Tehanu
More or less, more or less
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 17640
Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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 Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:55 am Post subject: No more calling Montreal cops "cochons"? |
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Bizarre. Think this will fly?
| Quote: | Montreal police have asked the city to empower local officers to crack down on insult-hurling citizens – likely with a blow to their pocketbooks.
... The union wants Tremblay to make it illegal for members of the public to call cops profanity-laced nicknames, or to call them names like "pig" and "doughnut-eater."
... Chief-Insp. Paul Chablo, communications director for Montreal's police force, said lawyers from the department and the city are examining the feasibility of such a rule.
"The key factor is ensuring that it becomes a useful tool for the officers involved, but at the same time it doesn't infringe on anybody's rights," he said.
Chablo said several municipalities across Quebec – including Quebec City – have some variation of a law that prohibits citizens from spewing slurs at police officers. |
Toronto Star.
This is hard on the heels of their proposal to ban masked protesters. |
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Cartman
Beyond cuddly
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8635
Location: OMG! They killed Jason Kenney!
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| Maybe they should try to alter their practices so that they earn respect rather than trying to force it on people. Given the recent problems in the RCMP and many other police organizations across the nation, I find it hard to feel sorry for them. |
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gunnar gunnarson
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 549
Location: The Arena of the Unwell
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:14 am Post subject: |
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"Hi, we're the police. Be careful not to hurt our feelings, or we'll shoot / gas / taser you."
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:48 am Post subject: |
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There's no way this flies. This will be found to be an unjustifiable infringement of the right to free expression.
_________________
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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Cartman
Beyond cuddly
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8635
Location: OMG! They killed Jason Kenney!
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| TS. wrote: | | There's no way this flies. This will be found to be an unjustifiable infringement of the right to free expression. |
It does point to some serious problems though. First, the Montreal police feel they are regarded as pieces of shit and need to protect themselves from the very people they are supposed to be working for. Second, they think the law should be used to prevent people from saying what they want to. Not something you want in a police force. This suggests that we need a major review of policing in Canada. |
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gunnar gunnarson
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 549
Location: The Arena of the Unwell
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| Cartman wrote: | ... we need a major review of policing in Canada ...
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Like, duh.
Google Edmonton police and Kerry Diotte sometime, or Toronto police and Otto Vass, or Mike McCormack, or Craig Bromell, or Rick McIntosh, or Andrew Clarke ... I won't even start on the RCMP and Ian Bush, or Robert Dziekanski, or APEC, or the assassination of Glen Clark ...
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voice of the damned
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 6140
Location: slandered, libeled
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:33 am Post subject: |
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I recall when I was a kid in Edmonton, a cop came to our school to do one of those "community outreach" visits. At one point he said something to the effect of "You know, when I walk down the hallways of a lot of schools, I always hear people saying stuff like 'Hey I smell roast pork'. But I don't let that bother me, it just comes with the job".
Looks like the cops these days are a little bit more delicate in their sensibilities. |
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:36 am Post subject: |
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Wasn't it Lisa Simpson who protested her mother becoming a cop by saying, "But Mom! Police are simply there as a paramilitary arm to protect the property and interests of the wealthy ruling class!"
Hmmm... seems you can get away with speaking the truth on teevee today -- as long as you dress it up as satire.
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fork
Utensil
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 1283
Location: Left . . . of the plate
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| TS. wrote: | | There's no way this flies. This will be found to be an unjustifiable infringement of the right to free expression. |
How does this fly then:
| Quote: | Mr. Dupuy was approached by two police officers on patrol in Montreal in May, 2006. He began to curse at the officers, who responded by threatening to give Mr. Dupuy a ticket and then asking him to identify himself. Mr. Dupuy refused. His lawyer argued that Mr. Dupuy was not obliged to identify himself because dropping the f-bomb did not contravene any municipal bylaws against swearing in public.
"It's not a curse word, it's an insult," the lawyer, Hélène Rouillard, said in an interview yesterday.
"Cursing is saying things like tabernacle, calice, ciboire - everything that comes from the church. If I said calice de tabernacle to a police officer, he could give me a ticket." |
Or this:
| Quote: | | The Alberta Court of Appeal limited its consideration to s. 152(1) of The Municipal Government Act which in clause (a) empowers the enactment of by-laws "for preventing drunkenness, begging, swearing, obscene, offensive or insulting language, fighting or disorderly conduct on or near any street or in or near any public place or building within the municipality, or in any place to which the public has access." |
bold added |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Or how about this law:
| Quote: | | EnMasse does not tolerate abusive debating tactics or personal attack / ad-hominem topics, slander or libel, or any posts which contain language or subject matter which is commonly agreed to be indecent or disgusting. |
No 'indecent' language? Gosh-darn it!!
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Norse of 60
Kokanee Kid
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 3711
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | Or how about this law:
| Quote: | | EnMasse does not tolerate abusive debating tactics or personal attack / ad-hominem topics, slander or libel, or any posts which contain language or subject matter which is commonly agreed to be indecent or disgusting. |
No 'indecent' language? Gosh-darn it!! |
Damn. You beat me to it. |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Did you just say d*mn? You'll be going to heck for that one.
Jeepers! Where are our manners??
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Sibjyn
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 1120
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Geeze the talk around here seems to have more saline content than the reproductive organs of a mythical half human half aquatic creature. |
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Norse of 60
Kokanee Kid
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 3711
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Sibjyn wrote: | | Geeze the talk around here seems to have more saline content than the reproductive organs of a mythical half human half aquatic creature. |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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It does say "commonly agreed to be", and I doubt you'd find any kind of common agreement here that "fuck" or "damn" or "shit" are indecent or disgusting.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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Probably not, no. But I always find it funny when the totally imaginary, intangible, abstract world of online words and letters is seen to need rules and protections more than the real, physical world.
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voice of the damned
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 6140
Location: slandered, libeled
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | | Probably not, no. But I always find it funny when the totally imaginary, intangible, abstract world of online words and letters is seen to need rules and protections more than the real, physical world. |
Well, if I were to start spamming this board with ads for a dating service, you'd probably agree that the mods have the right to shut me down. But I assume you would have no problem if I stood on a street corner holding a placard advertising the same dating service.
What do you see as the relevant distinctions between the two scenarios? |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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Primarily that this is a closed system, of which we all (members) tend to feel a bit of ownership.
The street corner, to me, is most analogous to "the internet". I'm sure there are plenty of places on the internet where you could flog your dating service and I wouldn't care.
To me the better analogy would be you, on my front porch, in my office, or at my private club, with your sign.
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voice of the damned
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 6140
Location: slandered, libeled
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | To me the better analogy would be you, on my front porch, in my office, or at my private club, with your sign.
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Well yeah, but the people calling the cops "pigs" aren't doing it in any of those places. I assume this verbal abuse is happening on public streets. |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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Fair point. I'm not a supporter of this initiative, incidentally.
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Rufus Polson
Purple Library Guy
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 3483
Location: SFU and/or the college of Riddlemastery at Caithnard
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | Or how about this law:
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What law? I could have sworn you were quoting the behaviour guidelines of some online forum. You mean the mods can have me put in JAIL?!  |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| Rufus Polson wrote: | | Senor Magoo wrote: | Or how about this law:
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What law? I could have sworn you were quoting the behaviour guidelines of some online forum. You mean the mods can have me put in JAIL?! |
Little did you know.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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Tehanu
More or less, more or less
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 17640
Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| TS. wrote: | | Rufus Polson wrote: | | Senor Magoo wrote: | Or how about this law:
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What law? I could have sworn you were quoting the behaviour guidelines of some online forum. You mean the mods can have me put in JAIL?! |
Little did you know. |
Mwahahahahahaha ... |
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Simon Vallée
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:41 am Post subject: |
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I think it may be less about sensibilities and more about security. If the police can't react to being insulted and belittled publicly, it may embolden certain people who will act more and more confrontational as they see the police is apparently caving in to their insults. This may lead to tragic situations, just like with Fredy Villanueva, with people deciding to physically aggress policemen as an intimidation tactic when they intervene because they have no respect for them and have never seen them react to any provokation, so they expect them to be cowed by their intimidation, at which time the police may feel threatened and some may draw their weapon.
I'm not sure the measure might be successful, but I think I understand where it's coming from.
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Québécois, socialist, sovereignist and metalhead.
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:03 am Post subject: |
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I'm sorry, no. Insulting the police doesn't cause insecurity. It causes the police to get pissed off and beat up protesters. Our free expression shouldn't be infringed because the police cannot control themselves.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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Simon Vallée
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| TS. wrote: | | I'm sorry, no. Insulting the police doesn't cause insecurity. It causes the police to get pissed off and beat up protesters. Our free expression shouldn't be infringed because the police cannot control themselves. |
Since the proposed punishment is a fine, I don't think it's done with protests in mind, but more in day-to-day patrols and functions. Giving a fine during a protest should be a pretty hard thing to do.
I'm very critical of how anti-riot police act in many instances, but I don't hate policemem as a principle. They have the right not to be harassed while on the job like anybody else does, and harassment includes having insults thrown at them. I don't think people should insult them and especially not in their face, as provokation or as intimidation tactics. I don't necessarily agree with the idea of fining people who do, but I don't think such actions are OK, and I think that we should try to reduce their frequency. Education is best though, on both sides.
Still, I think that insults may lead to people feeling they can freely intimidate and provoke policemen, which may lead to tragedies.
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Raos
volatilis vir
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5472
Location: Petropolis
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| Sure police officers have the same right to not be harassed on the job as everybody else. How many laws are there against insulting people in other professions, again? |
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Caissa
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 1146
Location: Saint John
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| This bylaw will clearly fail during the first court challenge. |
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Rufus Polson
Purple Library Guy
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 3483
Location: SFU and/or the college of Riddlemastery at Caithnard
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Simon Vallée wrote: |
Still, I think that insults may lead to people feeling they can freely intimidate and provoke policemen, which may lead to tragedies. |
Well, we haven't had a law against insulting cops in the past. And I don't think it has led so far to everyone having the impression that the cops would never do anything violent and can safely be intimidated. It strikes me as pretty unlikely, actually. |
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Simon Vallée
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Raos wrote: | | Sure police officers have the same right to not be harassed on the job as everybody else. How many laws are there against insulting people in other professions, again? |
Typically only those in a position of authority, who can't call someone else to remove the insulter because they're the ones supposed to be doing it. Try insulting a judge in court and see where that gets you.
| Rufus Polson wrote: | | Well, we haven't had a law against insulting cops in the past. And I don't think it has led so far to everyone having the impression that the cops would never do anything violent and can safely be intimidated. It strikes me as pretty unlikely, actually. |
Actually, there are old bylaws regarding that on the books in certain cities. Plus France has a lot of those laws (called "outrage"). As to elsewhere, typically in the past, cops were less restrained in dealing with people insulting them and they were chosen to be intimidating and strong more than anything else, so they often didn't need any legal manner of punishing people who disrespected them, they did it themselves. They still do in some places, and we don't like that at all.
As to the effect tolerating insults has, I think if you look at youths from troubled neighborhoods, you can see examples of people who think that they can intimidate the police. I can't say for sure that the inability of policemen to do anything about low-level confrontations is directly responsible, but it would stand to reason that it could contribute.
Anyway, I never endorsed the idea, and I'm not doing it now, even if I don't believe this is all about power-hungry cops trying to get new ways to annoy people. I don't like the idea of fining people for having potty-mouths, but I do believe that there is a problem beneath this that has to be solved. I already said I thought education was best on that matter.
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voice of the damned
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 6140
Location: slandered, libeled
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Plus France has a lot of those laws (called "outrage"). |
France has a law on the books against insulting the president.
| Quote: | The Sun could be forced to pay a £30,000 fine after branding the French president Jacques Chirac a "worm" in a special French edition handed out on the streets of Paris.
"CHIRAC EST UN VER" declared the Sun's front-page splash in the best "up yours Delors" tradition. The page featured a graphic illustration of a worm with the head of the French president emerging from a map of France.
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| Quote: | The tabloid's controversial stance breaks a French law that makes it a criminal offence to insult the president. Breaking the law carries a fine up 45,000 euros.
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I'm pretty sure the Sun wasn't charged in this incident. However, going by what the Guardian says, the law does have a chilling effect on political discussion in France.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2003/feb/21/pressandpublishing.Iraq... |
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fork
Utensil
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 1283
Location: Left . . . of the plate
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Simon Vallée wrote: | | Education is best though, on both sides. |
What sort of education? In what way are the insult-hurlers ignorant? |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Simon Vallée wrote: | | Raos wrote: | | Sure police officers have the same right to not be harassed on the job as everybody else. How many laws are there against insulting people in other professions, again? |
Typically only those in a position of authority, who can't call someone else to remove the insulter because they're the ones supposed to be doing it. Try insulting a judge in court and see where that gets you. |
That has nothing to do with a right not to be harassed on the job. That's about the court having the right to maintain decorum in the court room, because getting their job done requires being able to hear the people present.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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Raos
volatilis vir
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5472
Location: Petropolis
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Simon Vallée wrote: | | Raos wrote: | | Sure police officers have the same right to not be harassed on the job as everybody else. How many laws are there against insulting people in other professions, again? |
Typically only those in a position of authority, who can't call someone else to remove the insulter because they're the ones supposed to be doing it. Try insulting a judge in court and see where that gets you. |
Asside from the court comparisson, which TS. covered, do the police respond if a secretary calls 911 because "somebody's calling me mean names"? Can anybody get a real police response because somebody insulted them? |
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Simon Vallée
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| fork wrote: | | Simon Vallée wrote: | | Education is best though, on both sides. |
What sort of education? In what way are the insult-hurlers ignorant? |
Because they hurl insults at people whose job it is to enforce the law because they have that job? Because they often believe that the police is the "Enemy" that wants nothing more than to screw them over?
| TS. wrote: | | That has nothing to do with a right not to be harassed on the job. That's about the court having the right to maintain decorum in the court room, because getting their job done requires being able to hear the people present. |
So what if one does not speak out of turn but whenever he has the right to speak, he calls the judge "you goddamm idiot" and the opposing lawyer "you son of a bitch". He wouldn't prevent the job from being done nor others from speaking, would it be accepted? Seriously, I don't think so. In French, the fact that this is called "outrage au tribunal" with "outrage" being the word used by the law to describe the laws punishing insults against authority figures, and the fact that legal language is very technical and precise seems to me to indicate that insults are not acceptable even if in theory they don't prevent the job from being done.
Also, even if we accept your explanation, it can also apply to policemen. They are charged with applying the law and sometimes to act as arbiters in disputes that border on violence, if you insult them, then you go against them having the right to make the law respected. The analogy stands, both judges and policemen are part of the same legal system that they are, in their own way, charged with enforcing.
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Simon Vallée
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Raos wrote: | | Simon Vallée wrote: | | Raos wrote: | | Sure police officers have the same right to not be harassed on the job as everybody else. How many laws are there against insulting people in other professions, again? |
Typically only those in a position of authority, who can't call someone else to remove the insulter because they're the ones supposed to be doing it. Try insulting a judge in court and see where that gets you. |
Asside from the court comparisson, which TS. covered, do the police respond if a secretary calls 911 because "somebody's calling me mean names"? Can anybody get a real police response because somebody insulted them? |
If it's one-sided and it becomes harassing, I think you could. For instance if you work at a service point for the government and someone there wasn't happy with how you treated his case and started insulting you, or if there was someone in the waiting room who kept yelling insults at you because he was tired of waiting, I think the police might intervene to expulse that said person if you demanded it. I don't know the Law precisely, but there might be charges that could be pressed.
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| Simon Vallée wrote: | | TS. wrote: | | That has nothing to do with a right not to be harassed on the job. That's about the court having the right to maintain decorum in the court room, because getting their job done requires being able to hear the people present. |
So what if one does not speak out of turn but whenever he has the right to speak, he calls the judge "you goddamm idiot" and the opposing lawyer "you son of a bitch". He wouldn't prevent the job from being done nor others from speaking, would it be accepted? Seriously, I don't think so. In French, the fact that this is called "outrage au tribunal" with "outrage" being the word used by the law to describe the laws punishing insults against authority figures, and the fact that legal language is very technical and precise seems to me to indicate that insults are not acceptable even if in theory they don't prevent the job from being done.
Also, even if we accept your explanation, it can also apply to policemen. They are charged with applying the law and sometimes to act as arbiters in disputes that border on violence, if you insult them, then you go against them having the right to make the law respected. The analogy stands, both judges and policemen are part of the same legal system that they are, in their own way, charged with enforcing. |
In English it is called contempt of court. Police officers are not a decision making authority. They also don't rely on an environment of decorum and mutual respect to do their jobs they way judges do. Insulting the judge or the opposing lawyer is highly disruptive of the court processes.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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Simon Vallée
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| TS. wrote: | | Simon Vallée wrote: | | TS. wrote: | | That has nothing to do with a right not to be harassed on the job. That's about the court having the right to maintain decorum in the court room, because getting their job done requires being able to hear the people present. |
So what if one does not speak out of turn but whenever he has the right to speak, he calls the judge "you goddamm idiot" and the opposing lawyer "you son of a bitch". He wouldn't prevent the job from being done nor others from speaking, would it be accepted? Seriously, I don't think so. In French, the fact that this is called "outrage au tribunal" with "outrage" being the word used by the law to describe the laws punishing insults against authority figures, and the fact that legal language is very technical and precise seems to me to indicate that insults are not acceptable even if in theory they don't prevent the job from being done.
Also, even if we accept your explanation, it can also apply to policemen. They are charged with applying the law and sometimes to act as arbiters in disputes that border on violence, if you insult them, then you go against them having the right to make the law respected. The analogy stands, both judges and policemen are part of the same legal system that they are, in their own way, charged with enforcing. |
In English it is called contempt of court. Police officers are not a decision making authority. They also don't rely on an environment of decorum and mutual respect to do their jobs they way judges do. Insulting the judge or the opposing lawyer is highly disruptive of the court processes. |
Police do make decisions, they have the right to turn a blind eye sometimes, to just give a warning instead of a fine or to scale their reaction to a situation. Granted, they are much more limited than judges, but they still make decisions regarding the application of authority. They also rely, like all authority figures, with the respect of their authority, if they want to give a fine but the guy won't take it and throws a tantrum, they might have to choose to either let go or escalate the situation. As to insulting the judge and opposing lawyer being disruptive, if you respect the time given to speak and simply insult them while making your point, the only way you're being disruptive is that you are infuriating them and making them less impartial... which is basically what people who insult police do, infuriate them and make them more likely to be more severe.
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| Simon Vallée wrote: | | Police do make decisions, they have the right to turn a blind eye sometimes, to just give a warning instead of a fine or to scale their reaction to a situation. Granted, they are much more limited than judges, but they still make decisions regarding the application of authority. They also rely, like all authority figures, with the respect of their authority, if they want to give a fine but the guy won't take it and throws a tantrum, they might have to choose to either let go or escalate the situation. As to insulting the judge and opposing lawyer being disruptive, if you respect the time given to speak and simply insult them while making your point, the only way you're being disruptive is that you are infuriating them and making them less impartial... which is basically what people who insult police do, infuriate them and make them more likely to be more severe. |
Actually, police don't legally have the right to turn a blind eye. The criminal code doesn't say that something is an offence unless a police officer doesn't feel like arresting someone. Sure, they choose not to arrest or give a summons sometimes, but that doesn't make them administrators who need a calm and respectful atmosphere to do their work in. A court requires a certain level of decorum. Policing does not.
Also, just to be clear, insulting a judge is not a criminal offence. It is a civil offence, and non-criminal contempt won't get someone thrown in jail. Criminal contempt is the deliberate and public defiance of a court order.
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Simon Vallée
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| TS. wrote: | Sure, they choose not to arrest or give a summons sometimes, but that doesn't make them administrators who need a calm and respectful atmosphere to do their work in. A court requires a certain level of decorum. Policing does not.
Also, just to be clear, insulting a judge is not a criminal offence. It is a civil offence, and non-criminal contempt won't get someone thrown in jail. Criminal contempt is the deliberate and public defiance of a court order. |
Judges don't "need" a calm and respectful atmosphere anymore than anyone else, they want one and they've got the means to make sure they have one. As to decorum, policemen may live in the streets and act there, but there is still decorum expected of them: clean uniform, respectful manner of speaking, etc... To an extent where judges are considered to need calm and respect to do their jobs well, so do policemen. Policemen in a stressful situation with a lot of aggressivity are more likely to be too severe to those who have committed offences around them. If they are insulted, pushed and shoved, they may even fear for their lives and resort to their weapons, wounding or killing people.
As to insulting judges being a civil offense, the proposal has insulting cops being liable only to a fine that is issued on the spot, it would be a by-law, so there's no difference there.
The sad thing is I never supported the idea, I just can't stand one-sided bashing.
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fork
Utensil
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 1283
Location: Left . . . of the plate
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| Simon Vallée wrote: | | fork wrote: | | Simon Vallée wrote: | | Education is best though, on both sides. |
What sort of education? In what way are the insult-hurlers ignorant? |
Because they hurl insults at people whose job it is to enforce the law because they have that job? Because they often believe that the police is the "Enemy" that wants nothing more than to screw them over? |
I asked "what". You answered "why". Sort of.
If I believe the police are the enemy, how do you know that's not an accurate assessment and I am in need of re-education? How would you go about educating me? |
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Cartman
Beyond cuddly
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8635
Location: OMG! They killed Jason Kenney!
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Judges don't "need" a calm and respectful atmosphere anymore than anyone else, they want one and they've got the means to make sure they have one. |
That is like saying a library doesn't need to be any quieter than a Metallica concert hall. The librarians just have more power. |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| Simon Vallée wrote: | | TS. wrote: | Sure, they choose not to arrest or give a summons sometimes, but that doesn't make them administrators who need a calm and respectful atmosphere to do their work in. A court requires a certain level of decorum. Policing does not.
Also, just to be clear, insulting a judge is not a criminal offence. It is a civil offence, and non-criminal contempt won't get someone thrown in jail. Criminal contempt is the deliberate and public defiance of a court order. |
Judges don't "need" a calm and respectful atmosphere anymore than anyone else, they want one and they've got the means to make sure they have one. |
Again, I disagree. Legal arguments are complex and require substantial concentration to follow. You can't do that when you are trying to keep people from screaming at each other in the court room. Can you imagine the Supreme Court of Canada trying to decide a complicated conflict of laws case while also trying to keep the lawyers for the competing parties from getting into a fight or while having to stay calm while having someone shouting at them that they are idiots? They need the rules of courtroom decorum to ensure that they can do their jobs.
Policing is not a job one goes into expecting to be treated nicely and politely. Frontline law enforcement by its nature tends not to be nice or polite. This law is about restricting the free expression of those who are unhappy with the police. As such, it is unacceptable.
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Simon Vallée
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| fork wrote: | | Simon Vallée wrote: | | fork wrote: | | Simon Vallée wrote: | | Education is best though, on both sides. |
What sort of education? In what way are the insult-hurlers ignorant? |
Because they hurl insults at people whose job it is to enforce the law because they have that job? Because they often believe that the police is the "Enemy" that wants nothing more than to screw them over? |
I asked "what". You answered "why". Sort of.
If I believe the police are the enemy, how do you know that's not an accurate assessment and I am in need of re-education? How would you go about educating me? |
"Community outreach programs" I think is the common name. It starts at the elementary level, policemen should make regular visits to schools to show that, surprise, they're human too, that they don't aim to oppress people for fun, they do something that is necessary in any society, making sure that laws that society has adopted are respected. There are other ways to reach older people, like activities organized by the police where the community is invited.
| Quote: | | That is like saying a library doesn't need to be any quieter than a Metallica concert hall. The librarians just have more power. |
Horrible analogy, though if I entertain your non-sequitur, it doesn't need to be, but it helps a lot if you want people actually reading there (instead of just getting the books and getting out), the fact that people who are loud automatically avoid libraries helps a lot. Too bad people that are in court or are confronted with policement typically tend not to be the calm and respectful kind.
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Raos
volatilis vir
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5472
Location: Petropolis
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| Simon Vallée wrote: |
If it's one-sided and it becomes harassing, I think you could. For instance if you work at a service point for the government and someone there wasn't happy with how you treated his case and started insulting you, or if there was someone in the waiting room who kept yelling insults at you because he was tired of waiting, I think the police might intervene to expulse that said person if you demanded it. I don't know the Law precisely, but there might be charges that could be pressed. |
And is there any legal exception stipulating that police officers cannot be harassed, or do the laws you might change somebody with under those scenarios still apply if the victim is a police officer? |
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fork
Utensil
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 1283
Location: Left . . . of the plate
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Simon Vallée wrote: | | "Community outreach programs" I think is the common name. It starts at the elementary level, policemen should make regular visits to schools to show that, surprise, they're human too, that they don't aim to oppress people for fun, they do something that is necessary in any society, making sure that laws that society has adopted are respected. There are other ways to reach older people, like activities organized by the police where the community is invited. |
The police have already educated the public through community outreaching with guns and tasers. To say, "Never mind all that, we visit elementary schools", is educating? (Well, other than the banality of evil lesson.) |
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Tehanu
More or less, more or less
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 17640
Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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I'm content with the police having exactly the same amount of protection against people yelling insults at them as everyone else does. We have (supposedly) a social contract with each other not to be verbally abusive, and when someone crosses that line, then others can and should intervene. To give the police special protection above and beyond that is excessive and unwarranted.
Holding this opinion is hardly "bashing" the police. |
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Simon Vallée
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Raos wrote: | | Simon Vallée wrote: |
If it's one-sided and it becomes harassing, I think you could. For instance if you work at a service point for the government and someone there wasn't happy with how you treated his case and started insulting you, or if there was someone in the waiting room who kept yelling insults at you because he was tired of waiting, I think the police might intervene to expulse that said person if you demanded it. I don't know the Law precisely, but there might be charges that could be pressed. |
And is there any legal exception stipulating that police officers cannot be harassed, or do the laws you might change somebody with under those scenarios still apply if the victim is a police officer? |
Interfering in a police officer's duty is, I think, an offense. Interfering in a police investigation is for sure, and so is resisting arrest. The main difference in a case where a policeman is the target of such actions is that he has no one to turn to. He can't call anyone saying that he is being harassed and he needs help, HE is the help.
| fork wrote: | | The police have already educated the public through community outreaching with guns and tasers. To say, "Never mind all that, we visit elementary schools", is educating? (Well, other than the banality of evil lesson.) |
You are an example of hate being illogical. A majority of policemen never use their guns during their entire life, yet you have no problem accusing all policemen of using their guns regularly to educate the public to their "evil".
| Quote: | I'm content with the police having exactly the same amount of protection against people yelling insults at them as everyone else does. We have (supposedly) a social contract with each other not to be verbally abusive, and when someone crosses that line, then others can and should intervene. To give the police special protection above and beyond that is excessive and unwarranted.
Holding this opinion is hardly "bashing" the police. |
As I said in this post to Raos, the difference you don't take into account is that the police can't have the same protection as anyone else because THEY are the ones who are called for help when that protection is violated. That means they can't call anyone to protect themselves because they are the ones empowered to do that protection. And if one regularly violates the protection against verbal abuse of the people supposed to enforce that protection, why would he have any respect to other people?
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Cartman
Beyond cuddly
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8635
Location: OMG! They killed Jason Kenney!
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Interfering in a police officer's duty is, I think, an offense. |
Cutting in line at Tim Horton's? 
| Quote: | | You are an example of hate being illogical. |
I don't find fork to be hateful, although I know she does hate me because I am beautiful.
Why are there such big gaps/spaces in your posts? |
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Simon Vallée
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Cartman wrote: | | Quote: | | You are an example of hate being illogical. |
I don't find fork to be hateful, although I know she does hate me because I am beautiful. |
She apparently hates the police. One doesn't need to be hateful 24/7 to be hateful against particular people.
| Cartman wrote: | | Why are there such big gaps/spaces in your posts? |
Because instead of posting three posts replying to three different posts, I only post one and I make sure there's a space to differentiate between the ones I'm responding to. So if there's a large gap, that means I'm responding to somebody else.
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