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Diane Demorney · Bazinga! Joined: 11 Apr 2006 Posts: 4746 Location: Calgary

bshmr

TS. · Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:10 pm Post subject:

This is fucking insanity. And yet I haven't seen any media using the words assassination (or assassination attempt) or terrorism, yet this is quite plainly an assassination and in all probability was carried out by the rabid right for political purposes and is thus terrorism.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

voice of the damned · Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:14 pm Post subject:

The information seems to change by the minute. From MSNBC, 6:14 AM(where I am)...

voice of the damned · Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:17 pm Post subject:

Also from MSNBC...

TS. · Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:24 pm Post subject:

I don't know if you guys have seen this, but Sarah Palin is pretty close to directly responsible for causing this to happen.

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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

voice of the damned · Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:04 pm Post subject:

Wow. A couple of minutes ago, I was able to access YouTube videos by Jared Laughner, from 2010. But when I refreshed the page and did another search, they had all disappeared.

From what I saw, he seems to be a Ron Paul-style anti-banking conspiracy type. (Not that I'm saying Ron Paul had anything to do with this.)

EDIT: Looks like the videos are back up, or I made a mistake in my second search. The best search words...

DSquared · Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:14 pm Post subject:

Maestro · Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:03 am Post subject:

Well, the right-wing has a ready answer to this: Jared Loughner is a lefty.

Arizona Shooter Jared Loughner: A Certified Lefty Nut

I'm not exactly clear as to why a lefty would shoot a Democrat rather than a Republican, but in the world of USA politics anything is possible.

I have said before, and I'll say again, as the USA declines, the demand for politicians with simple answers will rise. So will tempers. Given the pressure cooker the US has become it may only take one shot to start the 2nd civil war. Let's hope this isn't the one.
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TS. · Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:08 am Post subject:

The stuff about him being a lefty comes from someone who knew him in high school. A person's political views can change pretty radically and rapidly over the three or four years after high school.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

fork · Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:53 am Post subject:

It's kind of funny watching how this is being politicized. Most of the initial reports I saw made much of Gifford being a Democrat, ergo Loughner's a right-wing nut job.

One of the confirmed dead is a federal judge appointed by Bush (H.W.), so maybe he's a lefty. Although the judge didn't rule against some illegals that filed a lawsuit against a "real" American, so he's right-wing after all. But Loughner says in a video that he was upset the army gave him a bible, so he's an atheist (lefty).

link

Maybe he's an unhinged and undecided voter.

Feral · Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:40 am Post subject:

If you have a taste for such things, consider a sampling of Mr Loughner's writing as this author has.

Maestro · Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:30 am Post subject:

I think it's pretty clear Loughner was completely out of his mind. Having seen some of the thoughts expressed on his web videos I'd say he was totally disconnected from any kind of rationality, left or right.

Having said that, it is clear that Giffords was the target. An eyewitness describes her as being the first one shot, then the gunman shooting at others around him. The police also now believe there may have a second person involved.

It is yet very early in the investigation, but it is certainly possible that Loughner was 'helped' to come to feel that killing Giffords was necessary. Of course, he may also just have decided that some politician needed shooting, and chose this person simply because she was known, and accessible.
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thwap · Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:54 am Post subject:

It could just as well have been Palin or Beck. Palin proudly describes herself as a "feminist" (lefty?) and Beck makes all sorts of populist noises about the "little guy" and "elites" (and he means Banking elites, corporate elites) that somebody could construe some of it as incoherent left-wing.

But the common thread is eliminationist rhetoric. With O'Reilly, Beck, Hannity, Palin, Bachman, etc., etc., (Flanagan!) ... eliminationalist rhetoric has gone mainstream. And, I'm not kidding myself, whatever the incoherent noise Palin or Beck or any of that garbage makes, their actions and agenda serves entrenched power and depends upon traditional prejudices and bigotry. That makes them right-wing.

Read this: http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2005/06/hunting-of-liberals.html

or any of what he's written on right-wing eliminationalist rhetoric.
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Man! I hate them fancy-lads!

Tehanu · Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:08 am Post subject:

I just saw a press conference from the Tuscon sheriff (?) and he was clearly very upset -- framing it that the violent rhetoric needs to end. It was totally clear who he was talking about.

But do people think that this will calm things down? I suspect the right will just say the guy was insane. And take no responsibility for their own political commentary.

And heaven knows they're not going to make any changes to gun control legislation.

bshmr · Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:30 am Post subject:

It is likely that authorities will "increase security" and "restrict dissent" which increase the odds of more revolts so to speak.

IMO, an alternative which has a chance is to hold entertainers and irresponsible politicians responsible for truth and reasonable opinion instead allowing falsehoods and incitements.

Also, citizens need to be able to dissent as well as change jurisdictions (leave or replace); when authorities appear to accommodate 'voice' and 'exit', resolutions occur without or with minimum violence.

TS. · Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:40 am Post subject:

thwap · Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:44 am Post subject:

See, his high-school friend is probably a shit-head. "Duh, the guy don't trust the govermint. He must be a commie!" Consider that Ron Paul was an anti-war, anti-standing army guy but still right-wing.

The link i posted, i failed to find one where he addresses the argument "it was just a lone nut-bar" ... by going "Yes! It's always a lone nut-bar! You Becks and Palins mainstream your murderous hate and the nut-bars among you turn violent in much greater frequency than do left-wingers.
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Man! I hate them fancy-lads!

Change · Fulltime enMasse Member Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 859

so many of us need mental health care , but we get death instead..
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What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don't like it any more than you men.

voice of the damned · Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:42 am Post subject:

Anyone else getting deja vu from 1995?

Having coasted to victory in the mid-terms, largely on the basis of disillusionment with a first-term Democratic president, Republicans proceed to frolick in anti-government rhetoric. A few months later, major terrorist attack occurs, undertaken by someone of murky affiliations, but clearly under the spell of anti-government rhetoric akin to what the GOP is preaching.

If this parallel holds, it could be good news for Obama. The Oklahoma City Bombing put the Republicans back on the defensive for a bit, and while this likely wasn't the only(oe even the main) reason for Clinton's re-election the next year, it certainly couldn't have hurt.

Maestro · Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:12 am Post subject:

voice of the damned · Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:30 pm Post subject:

bshmr · Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:43 pm Post subject:

Maestro makes valid points.

FWIW, what I read in the comments of the known-since-high-school poster lacked content, simply referred to Loughner as 'liberal'. So he could be a classic 'neo-con', anarchist, libertarian, or whatever. Or any combination across numerous issues and styles.

The report of him being removed from a juco class because of his being disruptive has some substance and is verifiable, on the other hand. Alleged quotes from his internet postings are confused and seem psychotic. ...

I can cynically, irreverently muse that had the young man had a radio program (with a smigden of fame/recognition), he would not have done this (though he may have encouraged others to do so).

sam · Fulltime enMasse Member Joined: 21 Jun 2006 Posts: 465

Doesn't anyone else think that much of what can be found of Loughner's online persona is itself a ruse???

TS. · Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:35 pm Post subject:

sparqui · Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:05 pm Post subject:

Timebandit · Fulltime enMasse Member Joined: 11 Apr 2006 Posts: 854

The victims: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/09/tucson-shooting-victims...

One victim was 9 years old. http://www.nctimes.com/news/national/article_2f7cdd58-1bc1-11e0-924...

sam · Fulltime enMasse Member Joined: 21 Jun 2006 Posts: 465

TS. · Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:49 am Post subject:

bshmr · Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:19 pm Post subject:

Sharing a sampling of published commentaries:

The World from Berlin
'Political Radicalization in US Unworthy of a Democratic State'
01/10/2011

sparqui · Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:29 pm Post subject:

That Mother Jones interview was interesting. I wonder where his parents were? His friend obviously noted pretty significant changes in his personality.
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bshmr · Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:37 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the comments. IMO, both articles were exceptional.

Maestro · Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:42 pm Post subject:

Well, I guess the next thing we want to know is where he got the Glock and the ammunition. He didn't just find it laying on the sidewalk, somebody sold, or gave, it to him.
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On the wilds of the Drive

bshmr · Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:25 pm Post subject:

IIRC, he bought it legally, in state, in November 2010, under his real name and address, etc.. Also, in Arizona, it is legal for him to carry without registration, a permit, or training, further that it may be concealed. Memory of interview on DemocracyNow earlier today.

thwap · Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:46 pm Post subject:

Here's the Neiwert blog post I was talking about:

bshmr · Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:19 am Post subject:

This piece has a point as well; plus, a reminder that it is proven that viewing violence increases the odds of violence.

White Guy Shooting = Crazy; Brown Guy Shooting = Terrorist
Date:Today 15:29; Author:Cord Jefferson
...

http://www.good.is/post/why-is-nobody-calling-jared-loughner-a-terr...

Searosia · Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:47 pm Post subject:

My dad's great wisdom on the subject "Guy is lucky he isn't muslim or he woulda been waterboarded by now" (he thinks religion has more to do with american racism than colour does now). I was really wondering why the terrorist lable hasn't come up...barely concealed racism.

CNN is showing that map from Palin's site...it's atleast nice to see the tone down rhetoric position on a US new site as the falvour of the week.
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Now is not the time for you Liberal fools, its time for a witch hunt. - Bloc Party

Senor Magoo · He's got a big one Joined: 11 Apr 2006 Posts: 8700

Chester · Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:22 pm Post subject:

on as it happens last night, they talked to some local expert (professor, maybe). when asked about the influence of gun culture his response, to paraphrase, was: the real problem was that no other citizens at the incidence were strapped "cause they could have pulled down and shot the guy before the body count went up". that's the real problem for sure.

voice of the damned · Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:08 pm Post subject:

fork · Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:17 pm Post subject:

From pandagon:

fork · Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:57 pm Post subject:

Alongside the map, Palin has been getting attention for what's getting deleted, and not deleted, from her Facebook page:
Obamalondon:

Searosia · Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:52 pm Post subject:

Senor Magoo · He's got a big one Joined: 11 Apr 2006 Posts: 8700

thwap · Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:21 pm Post subject:

Rufus Polson · Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:05 pm Post subject:

It seems unlikely--I don't know a lot about Olberman, but it doesn't seem like his style. Maybe that person is getting him mixed with someone?

I notice that later in the post, she mentions

thwap · Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:19 pm Post subject:

yeah i only sorta follow the news so i wouldn't be too surprise to have missed something, but that stuff sounds bizarre.
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Rufus Polson · Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:20 pm Post subject:

Searosia · Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:10 pm Post subject:

Sady was comparing her winning an arguement with her first boyfriend in a bush vs gore discussion (and her boyfriends violent reaction when she was winning) to the Loughner becoming violent because "losing an argument to a woman fueled his anger and bitterness against her to the point that he later became violent?". I don't really see that Giffords dismissal as 'winning the arguement'...it was dismissing it. What Sady says is true, I just think he reacted worse to the clever dismissal.

Admittadely, I also think Loughner is dillusional if he felt Gifford somehow had the responsibility to engage with that type of discussion with him.
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Now is not the time for you Liberal fools, its time for a witch hunt. - Bloc Party

Senor Magoo · He's got a big one Joined: 11 Apr 2006 Posts: 8700

So the going theory is that he shot someone in the head three days ago for a slight he felt he got, four years ago? That's revenge served ice cold. One wonders about his thought processes.

"No woman treats me like that!! I'll show her!!! Not this year, and not next year, and maybe not even the year after that, but one of these years -- maybe Q1 of 2011 -- she'll be sorry she ever dissed me!"
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