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Staying the Course in Afghanistan
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thwap
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:14 pm    Post subject: Staying the Course in Afghanistan Reply with quote

My local rag, the Hamilton Spectator, ran an editorial by one Bob Bergen of the Canadian Defence & Foreign Affairs Institute. Bergen’s essay supporting our policies in Afghanistan is typical of the frustratingly vague, over-generalized defences of this controversial mission. It’s also full of the distortions and innuendos that pro-war writers feel they need to use to make their case.

Bergen begins by saying that CF and others know that we’re winning in Afghanistan.

Are we winning the battle against the insurgents in Afghanistan?

Almost any Canadian soldier, diplomat or NATO official asked that question invariably answers: Yes, we are, but there is still a long way to go.

If we’re winning, then I’d hate to see what losing looks like. In all the years we’ve been fighting them, the Taliban have increased in numbers and have often increased the area of land under their control. If you hire an exterminator to get rid of mice in your home and five years later there are even more mice, you might question whether the exterminator is "winning" in his battle with the mice.

Bergen then follows up with an insult to critics of the war, describing us as ignorant dupes, ... the victims of simplistic “Canada-centric,” news sources, and unable to comprehend or care about the people of Afghanistan and their needs.

Well, no. I suppose that I'm as guilty as the next person of talking-past my ideological opponents on Afghanistan, but those times when I've actually bothered to read some pro-war writer or watch some patriotic propaganda masquerading as journalism, it's been shallow, vague stuff that constructs a crude strawman for the peace movement's positions. The reasons why ordinary Canadians don't support the mission in Afghanistan, and the reasons informing the active opponents of the war are simple and have been clearly stated for some time now:

  • The war is an imperialistic venture
  • The war was entered into as a means to support the United States
  • The reconstruction of the country has been a failure
  • The drug-eradication program has devastated the lives of Afghan farmers
  • The Karzai government is brutal and corrupt
  • The warlords in the Karzai government are monsters
  • Canadian soldiers are dying
  • Canadian soldiers are turning over prisoners (some of them teenagers) to torturers
  • The airwar has killed more Afghans than has the Taliban
  • The enemy is not always Taliban fundamentalist extremists but victims of the Karzai/Warlord government

To ordinary Canadians, this combination of problems meets up with feel-good stories about bags of candy, primary schools, women's rights, and assertions that we're "winning," produces an overall sense of confusion and a lack of enthusiasm for continued participation in the conflict.

And when defenders of Canada's participation come up with lacklustre, irrelevant arguments, it doesn't increase Canadians' confusion and disillusionment.

Bergen spends much of his article talking about the importance of building up the Afghan armed forces so that they'll be able to fight independently after we've left. We've obviously heard this before, in Vietnam, in Iraq, and now Afghanistan. Time and time again, we construct militaries to defend unpopular puppet governments against an organized, oftentimes popular, resistance, and we wonder why they fail to fight. They generally don't want to fight because they're in the army for a paycheque to support their families, and this entire plan hinges on their staying alive. They don't fight because they're corrupt, and they intend to use their weapons and power for extortion and self-aggrandizement. They don't fight because they don't like their own government or its foreign masters. They don't fight because they're actually with the resistance, and are using their presence to funnel arms and information to the resistance.

Ah, no matter, Bergen can tell us about Operation Tereh Toora:

About a week before Christmas, Canadian and British troops backed by NATO air power supported the Afghan army in Operation Tereh Toora against insurgent pockets in the Zhari District in southern Afghanistan. The importance of that mission, which killed 40 insurgents, was twofold, Laroche explained.


The first was that the NATO and Afghan troops have the initiative and decide where and when they want to go.

Uh-huh. So, great. The Afghan army is becoming an effective fighting force because they assisted in an operation with NATO. And they can decide where and when they want to attack, at least so long as they're with NATO forces and all their mobile resources, which means not a whole heck of a lot at the end of the day. Are they an effective defender of our man in Kabul or not? (And is that even a good thing?)

As well:

The second key point, Laroche said, was that: "We (NATO) are not here to fight the Taliban, the only ones who can defeat the Taliban are the Afghans."


Um, right. And this is relevant to your thesis that we're winning and we have to stay the course, how exactly? Aside from the fact that the Taliban are also Afghans, and aside from the fact that support for the Taliban has increased, not decreased, in the five years that we've been propping up an unpopular government and bombing villages to pieces, ... only the Afghans can fight other Afghans, if our plans to control the country are ever going to succeed. And we will succeed in creating this loyal and effective fighting force because, uh, ... because they've tagged along on missions with us and only they can really defeat their fellow countrymen.

Perhaps sensing that his article was on the short side, Bergen decided to close by quoting at length from one Dr. Mohammad Haider Rez, who oversees the removal of landmines in Afghanistan with the United Nations Mine Action Centre. Supposedly, unless we continue to bomb villages and destroy farmers' poppy crops with no compensation, this work will not be able to continue. Dr. M. Haider Rez is quoted, sometimes with good reason, but generally inexplicably:

As a surgeon, Reza survived the Russian occupation; the mujahedeen resistance; the Taliban and al-Qaeda; the devastating post-9/11 U.S. air strikes and invasion; and now the NATO mission.

"There were nights with my wife and six kids, I didn't know if we were going to wake up in one piece. It's true that we now have these pockets of resistance, but if we compare today with 10 years ago, I'm very positive for a brighter future," he said.

Well, that's something obviously. But speaking as one who didn't like the Taliban before 2001, I'm prepared to concede that life in Afghanistan is a little bit better for most since their downfall. But given that the US-financed wars in Afghanistan created the conditions for the Taliban's seizure of power, lets not pat ourselves on the back too strenuously. The article is about "staying the course," that is, continuing to focus on fighting the resistance, training a client army, and is this working to even the satisfaction of Western imperialists.

What else does Dr. M. Haider Rez have to say?

"Whether it is the British, the Dutch, the Canadians or the Americans, they are very helpful, but being the recipient of aid packages, there is no dignity and pride in that."


Maybe it's just me, but that doesn't sound like it has much to do with Bergen's argument.

"The idea that Afghanistan is the highest producer of opium; it is a sad problem our farmers are faced with. But, we have to take responsibility to get our people out of this crisis. We are ready to sacrifice ourselves. It is important that we do not disappoint you, the international community."


Yes! Obviously! Anyone can see that we're winning now! The Afghan military will soon be able to act independently, because, ... because, ... it's too bad that Afghanistan produces so much opium and because the people of Afghanistan have the responsibility to get themselves out of this crisis. Wha???

Bergen concludes:

Parliamentarians would do well to remember that when they debate whether or not Canada should remain in Afghanistan past February 2009.


To which I can only once again exclaim; Wha??????

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thwap
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gearing up for something big in Afghanistan:

sending in the marines
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Coyote
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, Lordy.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Staying the Course in Afghanistan Reply with quote

thwap wrote:
* The war is an imperialistic venture
* The war was entered into as a means to support the United States

So?
thwap wrote:
* The reconstruction of the country has been a failure

How sure are you about that? Everything indicates that the country has been improving steadily since 2001 - GDP, employment, health, etc. is up.
thwap wrote:
* The drug-eradication program has devastated the lives of Afghan farmers

It certainly has. The solution would be further reconstruction and development that allows farmers to make a living off of legitimate crops - and support for them to do so. Also, legalising heroin production for legitimate medical use would allow many farmers to keep their livelihoods. However, such a plan would require an improved security environment.
thwap wrote:
* The Karzai government is brutal and corrupt
* The warlords in the Karzai government are monsters

Ah, but is it more brutal, corrupt or monsterous than the previous one? Not by a long shot, and it is the government the Afghan people elected.
thwap wrote:
* Canadian soldiers are dying

But are fewer people dying overall as a result of these deaths? The deaths of seventy-five Canadians hits everyone really hard - but tens of thousands of Afghans were killed throughout the 1990's and as the Taliban took over. We must be careful not to weigh Canadian lives as somehow more "valuable" than Afghan lives.
thwap wrote:
* Canadian soldiers are turning over prisoners (some of them teenagers) to torturers

The solution would be further training and mentoring of Afghan security forces, and possibly a NATO-run detainment facility until improvements are acheived.
thwap wrote:
* The airwar has killed more Afghans than has the Taliban

Do you have any data to support this?
thwap wrote:
* The enemy is not always Taliban fundamentalist extremists but victims of the Karzai/Warlord government

The Karzai government has offered many opponents an opportunity to lay down their weapons and join the government in some way - thousands have already done so. It is a choice for insurgents to make, if they want to make it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
thwap wrote:
* The war is an imperialistic venture
* The war was entered into as a means to support the United States

So?


Yeah, really thwap, you gotta problem with our mission civilatrice in Central Asia?

It's our duty as a loyal, subordinate partner in Manifest Destiny to spread the message of Mickey Mouse and Coca Cola to the ignorant masses of the globe.
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thwap
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Staying the Course in Afghanistan Reply with quote

Factotum wrote:
thwap wrote:
* The war is an imperialistic venture
* The war was entered into as a means to support the United States

So?


So. you don't kill people just to support an imperialistic venture of the United States. Full stop.

Factotum wrote:
thwap wrote:
* The reconstruction of the country has been a failure

How sure are you about that? Everything indicates that the country has been improving steadily since 2001 - GDP, employment, health, etc. is up.


Since the country was massively bombed, the government was destroyed, and all food aid was cut-off? You mean since then? And, excuse me, but we promised that benighted country billions of dollars in reconstruction aid, and we haven't paid a fraction of it. That's because our governments really don't give a shit about these people.

Factotum wrote:
thwap wrote:
* The drug-eradication program has devastated the lives of Afghan farmers

It certainly has. The solution would be further reconstruction and development that allows farmers to make a living off of legitimate crops - and support for them to do so. Also, legalising heroin production for legitimate medical use would allow many farmers to keep their livelihoods. However, such a plan would require an improved security environment.


Our fearless leaders have had years to come up with something sensible. They haven't done so, ... once again, because they don't care about the people of Afghanistan. Cleaning up the heroin trade would also require going after the narco-mafia warlords, but we aren't going to do that. Because we don't care. We're going to go after farmers in the south of the country because they're relatively unprotected, unless you count the Taliban.

Factotum wrote:
thwap wrote:
* The Karzai government is brutal and corrupt
* The warlords in the Karzai government are monsters

Ah, but is it more brutal, corrupt or monsterous than the previous one? Not by a long shot, and it is the government the Afghan people elected.


You have no idea of the relative brutality of the warlords or the Taliban. In some respects this regime is better, in others it is worse. And the people of Afghanistan had Karzai thrust upon them at the Afghan Loya Jirga and the election was between Karzai (a Western puppet but a sane, reasonable man) and a brutal warlord. Your motto appears to be: "We're [allegedly] not as bad as the worst alternative, so anything goes!"


Factotum wrote:
thwap wrote:
* Canadian soldiers are dying

But are fewer people dying overall as a result of these deaths? The deaths of seventy-five Canadians hits everyone really hard - but tens of thousands of Afghans were killed throughout the 1990's and as the Taliban took over. We must be careful not to weigh Canadian lives as somehow more "valuable" than Afghan lives.


I'm not using that simplistic formula. I'm pointing out that Canadians who would not otherwise be getting killed, are getting killed for a mission that's of highly dubious merits.

Factotum wrote:
thwap wrote:
* Canadian soldiers are turning over prisoners (some of them teenagers) to torturers

The solution would be further training and mentoring of Afghan security forces, and possibly a NATO-run detainment facility until improvements are acheived.


Except for the fact that we haven't done this in five fucking years 'eh? Except for the fact that some of the torturers are NATO leader, the USA. Except for the fact that we trained police in Haiti after the first coup against their President Aristide, and they've turned out to be brutal thugs as well. I'm beginning to see a pattern here.


Factotum wrote:
thwap wrote:
* The airwar has killed more Afghans than has the Taliban

Do you have any data to support this?


Don't you remember? It was in all the papers. Frightening really.

Factotum wrote:
thwap wrote:
* The enemy is not always Taliban fundamentalist extremists but victims of the Karzai/Warlord government

The Karzai government has offered many opponents an opportunity to lay down their weapons and join the government in some way - thousands have already done so. It is a choice for insurgents to make, if they want to make it.


Yes, I follow you. Your logic leads straight to the toilet. Victims of Karzai and the warlords will lay down the arms and join that government in some way.

You should change your name to "fictiontotum" or "fantasytotum" or something.
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thwap
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

more stuff for fuctotum to chaw on

Quote:
In 2005, following well-documented accounts of detainee deaths, torture, and “disappeared” prisoners, the U.S. undertook efforts to turn the facility over to the Afghan government. But thanks to a series of legal, bureaucratic and administrative missteps, the prison is still under U.S. military control. And a recent confidential report from the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has reportedly complained about the continued mistreatment of prisoners.

The ICRC report is said to cite massive overcrowding, “harsh” conditions, lack of clarity about the legal basis for detention, prisoners held “incommunicado”, in “a previously undisclosed warren of isolation cells,” and “sometimes subjected to cruel treatment in violation of the Geneva Conventions.” Some prisoners have been held without charges or lawyers for more than five years.

According to Hina Shamsi of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), “Bagram appears to be just as bad, if not worse, than Guantanamo. When a prisoner is in American custody and under American control, our values are at stake and our commitment to the rule of law is tested.”


And when we turn our prisoners over to these monsters, our values are tested, ... and found wanting.
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al-Qa'bong
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're against the Taliban because of stuff like this, right?

Quote:
A reporter for the newspaper Jahan-e Naw ("The New World") and a journalism student at Balkh university, Kambakhsh, 23, was arrested on 27 October. Articles on the role of women in Muslim society were found at his home.

His brother, Sayed Yaqub Ibrahimi, also a journalist, told Reporters Without Borders his arrest was illegal. "Any case involving the press should be heard first by the Media Evaluation Commission before going to the courts," he said. "Furthermore, the prosecutor only referred the case to the courts after the Council of Mullahs said he should be sentenced to death for insulting holy texts."


link
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

al-Qa'bong wrote:
We're against the Taliban because of stuff like this, right?
Quote:
A reporter for the newspaper Jahan-e Naw ("The New World") and a journalism student at Balkh university, Kambakhsh, 23, was arrested on 27 October. Articles on the role of women in Muslim society were found at his home.

His brother, Sayed Yaqub Ibrahimi, also a journalist, told Reporters Without Borders his arrest was illegal. "Any case involving the press should be heard first by the Media Evaluation Commission before going to the courts," he said. "Furthermore, the prosecutor only referred the case to the courts after the Council of Mullahs said he should be sentenced to death for insulting holy texts."

link

That's funny.

I thought it had been established that RWB was nothing but an evil neo-con front organisation, and never to be trusted by "progressives"? I must have missed the part were it was decided that RWB was an evil neo-con front organisation, never to be trusted by "progressives" - except when it served your purposes.

Regardless, these are the kinds of abuses that need to be challenged, whether by the Taliban or by a corrupt - but hopefully slowly improving - government. Kudos to RWB for their work in exposing these crimes.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever; I'm off the hook because I'm not a Progressive, therefore this source can be trusted...this time.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The PBS "Frontline" investigative journalism series did a very interesting documentary called "Return of the Taliban" that you can watch online here:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/taliban/

Afghanistan and western Pakistan are such an absolutely incredible mess...thanks to the British, the Soviet Union, Saudi and Pakistani intelligence agencies, the CIA and the U.S. government and now NATO forces that I can come to no other conclusion other than that all of the foreign troops should just get out.

Then perhaps in a generation or two Afghanistan might have a chance to recover.

All of the "rah rah team" stuff we're being fed is just a pile of crap.
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al-Qa'bong
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Factotum wrote:


That's funny.

I thought it had RWB was nothing but an evil neo-con front organisation, and never to be trusted by "progressives"? I must have missed the part were it was decided that RWB was an evil neo-con front organisation, never to be trusted by "progressives" - except when it served your purposes.



Perhaps this source may be trusted?

Quote:
An Afghan court on Tuesday sentenced a 23-year-old journalism student to death for distributing a paper he printed off the Internet that three judges said violated the tenets of Islam.


CBC
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And CBC's source for that article is the associated press, which has a pretty good reputation.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing we don't hear much about are the economic opportunities to be gained by western participants in the occupation of Afghanistan.

Here is an assessment of Afghanistan's natural resources (lots of gas and mineral opportunities for exploitatio):

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/03/060314231913.htm

It seems that the Karzai puppet government has very "liberal" foreign investment, ownership and taxation policies in place. It's amazing how difficult it is to find this kind of information but here is a link to Afghanistan's Law on Domestic and Foreign Private Investment:

http://www.export.gov/afghanistan/bus_climate/afinvlaw_101102.html

Some highlights:

Quote:
Article IV:
Investment by foreign, domestic, and mixed investors in Afghanistan may be structured as follows:

1 - One hundred percent private domestic investment,
2 - One hundred percent private foreign investment,
3 - Mixed private domestic and foreign investment,
4 - Mixed public and private investment, either domestic or foreign.

Article XI:
The tax exemptions granted by the government are as follows:

- For short-term investments, a maximum of four years from license issuance, or three years from the start of production, whichever comes first.

- For medium-term investments, a maximum of six years from license issuance, or five years from the start of production, whichever comes first.

- For long-term investments, a maximum of eight years from license issuance, or seven years from the start of production, whichever comes first.

If special circumstances arise which require a longer period of exemption for an investment, the HCI, in due consideration of global norms, may agree to extend the duration of the exemption.

Transfer of Capital and Profits:

Article XV:
The capital and profits of the private investment may be transferred.

Sale:

Article XVI:
Private investors may, after paying all legal expenses and securing the agreement of the Office of Investment, sell their Enterprise.

Article XVII:
The investment capital and profit from the sale may be transferred outside the country.

Article XXIV:
Private investors may transfer any funds received from the government as a result of confiscation tax-free out of Afghanistan.

The High Commission on Investment will review complaints by the aforementioned Establishment and render appropriate decisions.

Article XXV:
Pipeline construction, telecommunications infrastructure, oil and gas, mines and minerals, and heavy industries are exempt from the provisions of this law.

Investment in these sectors shall be regulated under separate legislation.

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thwap
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To some extent, international investors will need a lot of coaxing to come to Afghanistan. But the space between providing incentives and allowing plundering is actually pretty large.

Enforcing decent behaviour on the part of the energy companies (HAH! The very thought of oil companies policing themselves!) should be the job of both the Karzai government (which has the nominal politicial power) and the NATO countries (that sustain him aside from the warlords).

Something tells me that very little oversight and enforcement is going on.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FACTOTUM:

Where were you when Jimmy Carter, then Ronald Reagan, then George Bush, then Bill Clinton, then George W. Bush were suppporting the Islamic fundamentalist groups with huge infusions of cash, and materiel?

Where were you when Canada, the United States, and other refused to take part in the Olympics because the Soviet Union had 'invaded' Afghanistan?

Where were you when an unholy alliance of Maggie Thatcher, Ronald Reagan, Zia al-Haq, and the House of Saud set up worldwide recruitment for Islamic fighters to come to Afghanistan and engage in a terminal battle with the officially atheistic Soviet Union?

Where were you when the left was warning that this policy of developing and funding (mostly with heroin sales) groups of fundamentalist Muslims could have far reaching consequences?

In today's Globe & Mail there was an editorial cartoon showing Jack Layton as a Taliban wind-up doll, carrying a 'Troops Out Now!" sign.

You, like that cartoonist seem bent on blaming the left for the Taliban and al-Qaeda.

Let me tell you something. Al-Qaeda and the various fundamentalist Islamic groups that now plague central and northern Asia, and are chiefly responsible for tearing Yugoslavia apart, were always a project of American foriegn policy. A project which they still supported after 9/11!

You don't like the Taliban? Don't like al-Qaeda? Don't like the Afghani heroin trade? Put the blame where it squarely lies. On an 'end justifies the means' group of extreme right-wing leaders who thought it would be great idea to destroy the Soviet Union.

Now as that same group of neo-fascists demonize their own creation, we are supposed to be cowed into going along with the prevailing strategy of bombing Afghanistan back to the stone age.

The only way to neutralize these groups is to clearly show their roots in US foreign policy. All other attempts will surely fail, with consequences that will reverberate for the next 100 years.

You want to help end this scourge? You could start by working with others to bring the criminals who inflicted this on the world to justice. The premier group consists of successive administrations of the US, the UK, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan.

If that is done, there is a chance to to bring peace and stability to central Asia. Otherwise, the killing will continue ad infinitum.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Factotum took the trouble to give a point-by-point reply to a post of mine and I returned the favour, meeting his/her challenge on them. T'would appear that Factotum has no come-back to this demolition of "the mission" (tm) and so, simply chooses to ignore it.

Which makes Factotum a dishonest debator.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hillier says that if Canada stays in Afghanistan, it has to be in a combat role. Hmm, does he want to pull out completely, then, I wonder? Somehow I doubt it.

Oh, and he also says that he and Harper are buddy-buddy.

Quote:
Canadian soldiers cannot avoid combat if they are to remain in the southern Afghan province of Kandahar beyond February 2009, Canada's chief of defence staff said Friday.

The Opposition Liberals have called for an end to Canadian combat operations by that date, but Gen. Rick Hillier said it was impossible for the military to perform strictly humanitarian and development missions in the volatile area.

"If you're in Kandahar, you're going to be in combat operations," Hillier told reporters after an address in Ottawa. "If you're there, you're going to be in the middle of a firefight some way or another."

... He also dismissed reports of an angry phone conversation with the prime minister over the government's handling of the Afghan detainee issue, saying his relationship with Harper was "solid and good."

The general said he heard about the reports when he was on vacation in the Dominican Republic with his wife.

"I was on my third rum and Coke and I really didn't give a damn," he said with a chuckle.

The Newfoundland-born Hillier said he can accept whatever decision the federal government ultimately makes, as long as it honours the sacrifices made by the Canadians killed in Afghanistan.


CBC
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The sound bite I heard is that he supports the Manley Report fully, especially the part about more NATO troops. (I often wonder if Hillier is just itching for another "great war" that involves large scale commitment of troops and equipment.)
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are approximately 40,000 NATO troops in Afghanistan now, will 1,000 more make any difference at all? Of course not, this is a sop to the Canadian public who may be feeling that Canadian troops are taking on too much of the fighting while other NATO allies sit out the fighting in relatively quiet portions of the country.
1,000 more troops, shifting the emphasis to reconstruction and other conditions of the Manley report are pure bullshit. Bowling pins set up to be easily knocked over as conditions to continue the killing for at least 2 more years.
To date we have spent 9 out of 10 dollars on the fighting. Reconstruction has been a joke and the only thing with a real priority has been road construction (necessary to move troops and military hardware around the country quickly and efficiently).
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is something that I've always found curious about the Afghanistan mission: if our job there is "reconstruction," wouldn't we be sending over carpenters, not soldiers?
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elmateo
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't completely agree with Rory Stewart, but if we are going to be Afghanistan we need less Harper/MacKay/Hillier and more people like Rory Stewart who want to understand the local population. On TVO they had a speech he did in October in Ottawa and he was very critical of how the mission has been constructed (state builders wanted to use Dubai and Singapore as examples of the state for Afghanistan) and the military - that an offensive posture is not effective.

And he is really critical of the attitude of the westerns in Afghanistan (at the end of this video clip you can sorta see where he is going) and the lofty goals that have been setup that are not realistic (he has said "law and order" is a lofty goal, that reconstruction has to be focused on very basic things that aren't trying to destroy Afghani culture/political structures but work with these things).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm9xR8G76kI

Its an interesting perspective - lots to disagree with but at least he is advocating a mission that works with Afghanis and doesn't treat them as idiots who need to be corralled into Western democracy, and he puts his actions where his ideas are.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't it dam near time for Hillier to retire?

I hear him and I think "Dr Strangelove"...
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb"

Sounds like Hillier to me.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm hearing how it's vital that NATO troops need to be there to train the Afghan army for "security". No western media seems to question the wisdom or the utility of using a standing army for domestic security operations. Such uses of the military is the hallmark of military dictatorships and totalitarian regimes.

Apparently, our media and government are untroubled by the consequences of using the military to keep the civilian population under control. No doubt, such a violation of democracy has great appeal for the Harpers and Hilliers whom have assumed power here. It also puts lie to the claim that the military's purpose is to defend democracy and freedom when their expressed mission is to train other militarys to fight their own people.
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sparqui
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jingles wrote:
I'm hearing how it's vital that NATO troops need to be there to train the Afghan army for "security". No western media seems to question the wisdom or the utility of using a standing army for domestic security operations. Such uses of the military is the hallmark of military dictatorships and totalitarian regimes.

Apparently, our media and government are untroubled by the consequences of using the military to keep the civilian population under control. No doubt, such a violation of democracy has great appeal for the Harpers and Hilliers whom have assumed power here. It also puts lie to the claim that the military's purpose is to defend democracy and freedom when their expressed mission is to train other militarys to fight their own people.


Isn't that exactly what we're doing in Haiti?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those of us on Facebook, there is now a group called: "Don't Extend It. End It. (Canada's War in Afghanistan)". I encourage everyone with a Facebook account to sign up, since there have been a number of trolls by lately with the usual "cut and run" and "but, but, but TERRORISM!!" type stuff going on.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hillier should shut up . He is just harpers mouth piece. It has been 6.5 years and it is the same old same old over there and will be for many years to come. Did NATO/Canada/USA not learn anything from the Russians? Or previous outsiders that tried to invade Afghanistan?

Wasn't Gangis Khan the last one in the 1200's that successfully conquered what we now know as Afghanistan? Or was their one since? But I do know it has been tried more than a few times without any real success.

But the libs or Conservatives in power won't make any difference, they both intend on staying their.

Politics in this country is really at almost an all time low, no wonder people don't care and I bet a lower voter turnout next time. Dion is harpers 'yes man' people don't trust the NDP for some reason...we almost need a revolution to get our country back...
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hillier is disgusting. We live in a supposed democracy, not a military dictatorship. His "opinion" does not matter, in fact it is down right offensive for someone in his position to be using his position to pressure politicians. And everyone just bobs their head in acceptance that this is okay behaviour for the military. We don't like in 1970s-1980s Chile. Take a seat Hillier - your job is to follow government policy not to influence it. You can give your advice in private, but when it comes to public opinion we don't want to hear about your desire to kill people.

More specifically, he disgusts me by pretending that having a public debate endangers soldiers lives. Not having that debate endangers soldiers lives - the "Taliban" gain by dumb ass military leaders manipulating politics because it demonstrates the lies of western democracy that we are supposedly bringing. His "I don't want to say it does endanger lives, but I can't say that it doesn't", uh huh. WTF does that mean? It means you are saying it does but know that you should shut up, Mr Hillier. Listen to your own common sense and recognize that military leaders should not be trying to manipulate public opinion in favour of war in a democracy.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elmateo wrote:
Hillier is disgusting. We live in a supposed democracy, not a military dictatorship. His "opinion" does not matter, in fact it is down right offensive for someone in his position to be using his position to pressure politicians.


Wouldn't it be nice if some politician, of any party, called for his dismissal for what he has just done?

Don't turn blue holding your breath.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be a scary prospect for any politician given the fawning of the media over Hillier and the "support the troops" racket. There is more rotten with this Hillier story than just Hillier unfortunately.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where's Svend Robinson when you need him!
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

22 Minutes did a short skit the other night where they had a segment of "Politics Now" (hosted by Cathy Jones) where they were discussing/debating Afghanistan and "the mission", but in three minutes the host and her two guests never got past the "I support the troops"; "Oh yeah, well I support your support of the troops"; "And I am very supportive of the support you have for the support of supporters of the supportive troops, and I support the supportion of the supportation of the..."

It was funny, in a sad, pathetic and sickening way.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TS. wrote:
For those of us on Facebook, there is now a group called: "Don't Extend It. End It. (Canada's War in Afghanistan)". I encourage everyone with a Facebook account to sign up, since there have been a number of trolls by lately with the usual "cut and run" and "but, but, but TERRORISM!!" type stuff going on.


Consider me joined.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Me too. Thanks for the heads up TS.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem! Smile
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al-Qa'bong
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Careful...

Afghan journalist for CTV labelled 'unlawful enemy combatant'

Quote:
The U.S. military has designated a journalist employed by CTV in Afghanistan as an unlawful enemy combatant.

A military spokesman told the Associated Press that a review board has determined Jawed Ahmad, an Afghan national, is a danger to foreign troops and the Afghan government.

Ahmad has been held for the last four months at the U.S. military compound in Bagram, 50 kilometres north of the capital, Kabul. U.S. officials alleged he had Taliban phone numbers and videos in his possession when he was picked up.


...or you might end up in Gitmo.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linda McQuaig wrote an interesting piece on this. I thought it was a good read.

Dion caves, Harper raves
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That McQuaig article was pretty chilling.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the guy is a journalist. I guess there are some people who are so used to the kind of lap dog castratii who pass themselves off as journalists that they don't recognize a real one when they stumble over him. The guy is a journalist in an area where there are strong divisions of thought, does it not stand to reason that in order to give a balanced account he would want to have access to both or even all sides?

Jeebus, he has phone numbers! Any of us can get phone numbers. You could even make up numbers and say they were phone numbers. It does not necessarily follow that having a phone number which would possibly put you in touch with an interview subject means you are working on behalf of the Very Debbil Hisself.

How many other people are being held in black holes simply because they came to the attention of some twit or other?

As for Hillier... he needs to have it explained to him that he is supposed to obey government, not tell the government what to do. Any time you have generals twitching the strings of the puppets you can be pretty sure bullets are going to fly. It's what they are trained to do, it's what they are hired to do, and it is what they do. If ever peace were to break out the generals would be unemployed. The last thing they want is peace. They might have to get a real job if we had peace!

Hillier doesn't want the troops brought home, it would reduce his chance of having the opportunity to strut and bluster.

The man, in my opinion, is not mentally balanced. He is a human bomb just itching for the chance to blow up and take as many others with him as possible. Another of the crowd who will fight to the very last drop of everybody else's blood.

He should be dismissed because Queen's Rule and Regulations actually forbid members of the military from publicly discussing politics. They are to be the servants, not the masters.

The guy is a total disgrace to his uniform, his country, and himself. Just a total blustering disgrace.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the votes are in, the numbers tallied and the result: 198-77 for the motion to extend the afghan mission to 2011 (The NDP and Block voted against)!

So here we go, barring embarrassing/unforeseen circumstances (like not being able to get the 1000 troop support from other NATO members) we shall be at WAR for another 3 years! (Not that most Canadians have noticed)

The other interesting bit from the article in the grope n'flail is that the Afghan Adventure (tm) is not being funded as separate budget items, in the same way ww1, ww2 and korea were! Therefore it is difficult to get accurate figures as to the cost because it is intermeshed with DND's operating budget!

Here's the article:http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080313.wafghan...

Quote:
Members of Parliament voted to keep Canada's fight in Afghanistan going until 2011, even though the financial and human costs remain shrouded in the fog of war.

The Conservative government, backed by the Liberals, passed a motion that extends the deployment of troops, as long as certain conditions are met. The vote was 198-77 in favour, with the NDP and Bloc Quebecois opposed.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The longer it goes on the easier it has been for the media to ignore. The sensationalism of the conflict has dropped off for entertainment style news and therefore public perception of the war has changed significantly. It isn't that it has gotten any better, it has gotten worse in actual fact, but I imagine that Canadians think it is a better situation than 4 years ago.

This kind of blaise attitude will run its course I imagine, but for the present it has allowed this particular extension to pass without much outrage.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

elmateo wrote:
The longer it goes on the easier it has been for the media to ignore. The sensationalism of the conflict has dropped off for entertainment style news and therefore public perception of the war has changed significantly. It isn't that it has gotten any better, it has gotten worse in actual fact, but I imagine that Canadians think it is a better situation than 4 years ago.

This kind of blaise attitude will run its course I imagine, but for the present it has allowed this particular extension to pass without much outrage.


It is so demoralising. I really think one of the opposition parties needs to set-up a media announcement, and announce that we have now drifted into a prolonged WAR without a debate on the war, only on the 'mission'. We are at war, just like we were in Korea, only you'd think we were off walking through the countryside picking daisies (or rather poppies as we are in Afghanistan)!

Honestly it drives me nuts the whole 'mission' debate.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Mission" suggests that we have some sort of goals besides killing the opposition, so we do not have to think about who we are killing and why - all that is important to know is that they stand in the way of the mission. The rest is hardly articulated and because of a media that is itself too accepting of a discussion based upon talking points (this talking point is better than this one, therefore we must be making progress!) we are left with a discussion debased of reality.

And the politicians (assuming some of them actually themselves know more than talking points) have exploited this to no end in the past year.

Canadians die because we are in a war - the only legitimiate debate is whether we call it a "civil war" or a "war of occupation" (I am not saying that I would argue it isn't a war of occupation, I am just saying what a debate SHOULD look like). That is not happening.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

elmateo wrote:
"Mission" suggests that we have some sort of goals besides killing the opposition, so we do not have to think about who we are killing and why - all that is important to know is that they stand in the way of the mission. The rest is hardly articulated and because of a media that is itself too accepting of a discussion based upon talking points (this talking point is better than this one, therefore we must be making progress!) we are left with a discussion debased of reality.

And the politicians (assuming some of them actually themselves know more than talking points) have exploited this to no end in the past year.

Canadians die because we are in a war - the only legitimiate debate is whether we call it a "civil war" or a "war of occupation" (I am not saying that I would argue it isn't a war of occupation, I am just saying what a debate SHOULD look like). That is not happening.


Agreed. So where are the opposition with their News bytes? All they would need to do is stand up and say, Now, without debate, we are at WAR, just like in Korea, with an extra-national mandate/governing body (NATO) as our allies in the region. The only difference: in Korea we admitted it, and had a special budget set up for it, here the government is trying to camouflage the real 'numbers' by talking about a daisy picking mission as part of the operational budget of DND. If only the NDP would 'harden the f--k up and say it!
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"Mission" suggests that we have some sort of goals besides killing the opposition, so we do not have to think about who we are killing and why - all that is important to know is that they stand in the way of the mission. The rest is hardly articulated and because of a media that is itself too accepting of a discussion based upon talking points (this talking point is better than this one, therefore we must be making progress!) we are left with a discussion debased of reality.


It isn't as if we couldn't see this coming...

Quote:
War, however, is no longer the desperate, annihilating struggle that it was in the early decades of the twentieth century. It is a warfare of limited aims between combatants who are unable to destroy one another, have no material cause for fighting and are not divided by any genuine ideological difference. This is not to say that either the conduct of war, or the prevailing attitude towards it, has become less bloodthirsty or more chivalrous.

On the contrary, war hysteria is continuous and universal in all countries, and such acts as raping, looting, the slaughter of children, the reduction of whole populations to slavery, and reprisals against prisoners which extend even to boiling and burying alive, are looked upon as normal, and, when they are committed by one's own side and not by the enemy, meritorious.

But in a physical sense war involves very small numbers of people, mostly highly-trained specialists, and causes comparatively few casualties. The fighting, when there is any, takes place on the vague frontiers whose whereabouts the average man can only guess at, or round the Floating Fortresses which guard strategic spots on the sea lanes.


War is Peace
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al Q, that last quote, well it is so, well it's so Orwellian, now all we need is Kafka to walk in and metamorph into an 'Ungeheuer'.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maher Arar could tell us a few things about Kafka.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HAHL wrote:
Al Q, that last quote, well it is so, well it's so Orwellian, now all we need is Kafka to walk in and metamorph into an 'Ungeheuer'.

Just to check, you do know that that is a quote from 1984, right?
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al-Qa'bong
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chill, TS. I think HAHL's use of italics shows he is quite aware of the source.

Psst, by the way; the title is Nineteen Eighty-Four, not 1984 anyway.
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