EnMasse

[Corey]

My local commercial talk radio station (...I know, I know) can't go five minutes on the evacuation of Canadians in Lebanon without the host, a caller or both casting wide aspersions on the loyalty or legitimacy of dual citizens.

I am a dual citizen.

I was born this way, it happens. And I have close family in both countries.

Not long ago, I went to my "other" home country, on short notice and for an indefinite period of time, to stay over to help my grandparents. They were recovering from and adapting to serious health situations, and I was the part of the family best able to help them do basic things like going to health care appointments, shopping, going to see friends and going to church, as freely and independently as they could.

If I had given up my other home country's citizenship, I might not have been able to. In some countries, I wouldn't have been able to step foot; in this one, as it happens, the outside length of my stay would have been limited by the requirement to apply for, pay to apply for, hope for and wait for a visa. Maybe.

I don't see how reneging the right to live with my own family would make me one ounce - sorry, one gram - better a Canadian citizen.

I'll go further and say that if one polity trusts my likely judgment and my likely commitment to common international principles of justice and good government, enough to let me vote in its great national elections... what, does it think my values might get polluted, somehow, if i vote in the other's? (I follow the politics of both countries carefully, I vote in both. I feel I'm a part of and I care about my fellow people of both.)

I don't expect to be barred from dual citizensip myself, retroactively; I doubt... I think I doubt... the Canadian government could likely really get anywhere trying to close the door in the future.

More likely - already the case, if my radio station is any guide - is that social proscription will start to look down on dual citizens as second-class somehow, as less legitimate, less than complete. Even less than honest.

And while I've put this out here very personally, I'm really more worried about other dual citizens. Especially folks whose other home countries are (even) less popular than my own.

...Thoughts on dual citizenship, native-born or naturalized? Or on staying in a country, long-term, without seeking its citzenship?

[Mush]

Seems to me that in an era of transnationalism and global migration, dual citizenship is just the formal political recognition of the reality that many migrants live. The days of arriving in Canada by steamship, receiving a letter from home once every six months, and starting a "new life" are over, if they ever existed. People remain intimitely connected to people and institutions in their countries of origin, as well as Canada.

I think that the numbers of Canadian/Lebanese citizens that this crisis indicated was a shock to some people. For many native-born Canadians, the only model of immigratin they have is their grandparents or great-grandparents, who became "Canadian" and assimilated, or at least so it looks from the perspective ofosomeone a couple of generations removed.

[Tehanu]

I suspect to a number of these racists -- and I am going to call them racists, because I've been hearing and seeing their reactions to the Lebanese-Canadians and they are racist reactions -- they're conveniently forgetting where their own families came from, since I'm going to make the ever-so-unlikely assumption that they're of European descent.

Honest to God, how many times do we have to point out the hypocrisy of anti-immigrants?

I'm led to say this because I, like many many other people, am entitled to a British passport if I ever want one. There's some sexism inherent in that, of course, because up until quite recently this was based on male descent. Whatever. The point being, technically I can have dual citizenship, which would be ducky if I ever wanted to live and work in the UK. And, other than some minor residency requirements, this would entitle me not only to all the social programs and benefits there, but also to work and travel anywhere in the EU.

So would that mean I was exploiting the EU if I retained my Canadian citizenship?

It's luck of the draw as to what country you're born in. I think immigrants demonstrate a higher commitment to a country in many ways, since they choose to uproot themselves and often their family, in order to go somewhere else. It's not easy. And there's no question in my mind that anyone born in Canada is, indeed, lucky. Maybe we should spread that luck around just a wee bit.

For example, I'd like to see us evacuating anyone who wanted to leave Lebanon. Providing a refuge for people whose homes have been destroyed. Demonstrating our commitment to helping others, regardles of nationality. Ha.

Personally, I'm just tired of nationalism. Bring on the world government. So many injustices and inequities would be better able to be addressed if we thought of every starving child as one of "us" not as one of "them."

[beluga2]

Of course it's fucking racist. Purely racist. Consider 9/11. There were, what, 30-odd Canadians killed in the World Trade Center; I'm sure at least some of them were dual citizens. And that was just one building; just imagine if the entire city of New York had been subjected to a ferocious and sustained bombing attack. How many Canadian dual citizens would we have to evacuate were that to happen? Or if the entire US was being attacked and demolished? Must be in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions.

Do you recall any right-wing talk-show hosts or editorialists or Garth Turner-type politicians fulminating about how those 9/11 victims weren't "real" Canadians because they were living and working in the US? That they were only "Canadians of convenience" and should be left to rot? In fact, to the contrary; I've heard it repeatedly said by Canadian apologists for Bush's War on Terra that it's "our war" too, cuz our citizens were killed on 9/11.

But of course, that's different, cuz the US is a country like us. Lebanon, of course, is on the "other side", and dual citizens from those places must be "Canadians of convenience" at best, "terrorists" at worst. (I actually read some dolt on a right-wing blog worrying, in all apparent seriousness, that the Lebanese-Canadian refugees might try to behead Harper while they were on the plane with him. )

I'm not surprised that the suppurating pus of anti-Arab racism that lurks just beneath Canada's "gentle" and "tolerant" exterior might ooze to the surface because of this week's events, but I must say it's done so far more openly than I expected. It's sickening, and enough to make you wanna go

[Q*Bert]

[Agent 204]

Actually, some people react negatively to dual US/Canadian citizens as well. A member of my family admitted that she lost a lot of respect for Phil Edmonston when she found out that he was, as she put it, "not a former Yankee, but a Yankee". She thought that it indicated a divided loyalty that called his committment to Canada into question.

[TS.]

[virge47]

[virge47]

[Tehanu]

[virge47]

Why should a person who has dual citizenship and lives and works in say Canada and only visits their originating country, be allowed to vote in that country or avail themselves to any of the other benfits of a resident citizen in that country? If you only go to your former country to partake of their services or to vote, when your vote could have a direct affect on the residents who live there. Maybe this effect could be opposite to what the resident citizen wanted, but has to live with the outcome, but the person who lives in Canada suffers no ill effects of their casted ballot. Since you also pay no taxes since you work and pay taxes in Canada, but not in your originating country, you have forced the resident citizen to bear the cost which I think is wrong. So on this basis that I have pointed out it is wrong to hold dual citizenship.

In the case of people being evacuated from Lebanon, other then the rantings of a few I don't think that is the view of most Canadians.

[virge47]

[Diane Demorney]

The U.K. is a member of the E.U. therefore if one is a citizen of the U.K. one might also work in the E.U.

Therefore, Tehanu was NOT wrong.
_________________
Scissors cuts paper. Paper covers rock. Rock crushes lizard. Lizard poisons Spock. Spock smashes scissors. Scissors decapitates lizard. Lizard eats paper. Paper disproves Spock. Spock vaporizes rock. And as it always has, rock crushes scissors.

[Makwa]

[beluga2]

A lack of basic Googling skills, perhaps?

[Agent 204]

[West Coast Tiger]

First of all, I want to say thanks to Corey for starting this thread. It's an excellent topic that fits well with something I tried to do earlier this week...

A few days ago, I was reading the CBC comments section and a couple other comment sections out there concerning the crisis in Lebanon and Harper's response to it. I was absolutely appalled by many of the comments I read.

Some are what I would perceive as racist comments... wondering what so many 'so-called Lebanese-Canadians' were doing there in the first place - bordering on labeling them terrorists.

Other folks wailed about the cost to taxpayers involved in bringing them home -- despite the fact that likely the vast majority of Lebanese-Canadians pay taxes while abroad (I know I have to do my Canadian taxes from Tokyo each year!) - never mind the utter lack of humanitarian decency in those posts.

Still, even more said it's there own damn fault for being in a 'dangerous hot bed' type place -- completely forgetting the fact that Lebanon has been fairly peaceful and productive for a awhile now and that immigrants often visit their families during holidays... no matter where they are from originally.

Still others accused Lebanese-Canadians of using their passports as one-time 'get out of war cards'... once again, completely ignoring that many of these Canadians were in Lebanon visiting friends and family or showing the progress of their homeland to their Canadian born kids. And others chose to have dual nationalities and live in Lebanon -- so what? Plenty of Canadians do that!

Some of the more asisine comments included how priority should be given to those that can prove they pay taxes or stay in Canada for longer periods of time... as if you can even find your passport and pack your suitcase when you are running away from bombs, never mind supporting documents to claim you paid your taxes this year.

And on and on it went...

There were, in my opinion, many comments that smacked of outright racism and two-tier class system for citizenship. It was disgusting and so I tried to post a response that I thought might give food for thought. In a nutshell, here is what I tried to post (paraphrased, because I don't have the exact post anymore, and the editors chose not to post my response for whatever reason):

[TS.]

Great post WCT. I discovered that during the election some long responses simply do not get published because they are too long. I tried several times to post a lengthy refutation of some bullshit claims that were being made by a Liberal and it would never go. Yet when I pared the length down it would go. What I wound up doing was posting my long, indepth refutation in several chunks.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

[West Coast Tiger]

[Tehanu]

Thank you Diane, Makwa & Beluga2 for confirming that the UK is part of the EU.

As far as the dual citizenship thing goes, I think it's a good step in the right direction. The less we identify as individual nationalities, sects, religions, and other divisions, and the more as citizens of the world, the better. Just because someone is of a different nationality doesn't mean they don't bleed when someone hurts them, starve when they don't have food, suffer when the environment is degraded, and on the plus side, care about and empathise with others because we are all human beings.

Also, great letter WCT. Sums up what I've been feeling as well. Frankly, I'm appalled at the reaction of many of my fellow Canadians.

[sparqui]

I agree with others, that was a great letter WCT.

I also agree with Beluga, the ugly racism that is surfacing these days was quietly surpressed or couched in politically correct terms by genteel Canadians. But since the War on Terrorism (the greatest propaganda coup in ages if ever), overt racism need not hide its head in shame.

When was the last time anyone was in an uproar about dual citizenship with the UK? Or even any of the other EU or near-EU countries?

This racism also extends to how we view newly arrived and long resident immigrants. Here's a trip down memory lane:

[Scott Piatkowski]

It never ceases to amaze me how nind-numbingly stupid racists are*. Not that it makes any difference, but the majority of Lebanese immigrants to Canada are Christian, not Muslim. There's no excuse for racism, but you would think that someone who is so hung up on the difference between races (and religions) might try to be a little more concerned about the actual differences between people.

* Other examples include:

1. The people who defaced a Sikh temple after 9/11.
2. The people who beat up an Iranian man during the first Gulf War, thinking he was Iraqi.
3. British police who shot an innocent Brazilian electrician because he looked like a suicide bomber (whatever a suicide bomber looks like).
4. American anti-immigration voices (including David Frum) who decry the fact that hispanic migration will soon lead to people of European extraction being a minority (hint: Spain is in Europe)
5. The people who drove by and shouted "Paki" at a Somolian-Canadian of my acquaintance.

While I'm posting on this subject, here's an excellent slap down of Peter Worthington for his most recent column.

[sparqui]

That slap down is beautiful Scott. Thanks for the link!
_________________
“If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a tractor.”

-- Gilles Duceppe

[transplant]

Another dual citizen here. It's not that I seriously want to retain my US citizenship, it's that I have to go before a US consular official and renounce it. It isn't worth the trouble. I haven't voted in the US in over 20 years, and I don't intend to file for US social security since I haven't been paying into it for as long.
I do go back to visit friends and family, but I don't intend to live there again.

[arborman]

[Corey]

*bump,* now that Stephane Dion's French citizenship, by birth, through his mother, is the great political tempest of the day.

[leftcoastguy]

Dion’s insult — to France
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Thinking is so overrated.

[Admiral Awesome]

I think there's a world of difference between a potential leader of the government holding dual citizenship, and that of an average citizen. Its interesting to note that Michaelle Jean gave up her French citizenship when she became Govenor General, which is a lot less important than a potential Prime Minister's citizenships.

[elmateo]

MEH!

Take that.

So what, he has dual citizenship... seriously if thats the worst thing they could bring up... and we have people clucking like chickens over it... what does it say about us?

Seriously, we already accepted the quebecois nation within canada. there you go, multinationality, so dion is a hypocrite? i dont know. maybe. but whether he has 2 citizenships or 1 doesn't make the world of difference to me. id rather see what his policies are and that is what i care about not faux issues. I am sick and tired of this anti french barf that comes out of knownothings.

yeah he is going to have to pick between france and canada and he is going to have such a hard time picking which one is more important... he is a liberal! he is going to do what gets him elected. which isn't pandering to france...

[Admiral Awesome]

It just seems pointless for him to hold the French citizenship too. Is he actually going to use it? Well, obviously not if he's going to be the next Canadian Prime Minister. So why even have it?

What I find interesting from all of this though, is the reaction of Canadian-American MP's in the government, like Myron Thompson. Are they going to renounce their American citizenship? I think they should, if they want to be government representatives. It's not something I'd put a whole lot of effort into, sort of like my belief that Canada should be a republic, but it's just something that I find strange for someone in their positions.

[elmateo]

They will be private citizens again in the future...

[JPG]

I agree VK. I have nothing against duel citizenship, but I dunno if I like it with my politicians. Especially a potential PM.
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We are the youth, we'll take your fascism away...

[Admiral Awesome]

They're not private citizens now.

[Corey]

I would be loathe to give up what my mother or my father gave me, that they had themselves, and that I share with and that connects me to their side of my family.

Is this attachment anything more than symbolic and sentimental? It is.

All of my grandparents are alive, and... my parents, like everyone's, get older.

Like Stéphane Dion's, my mother is from another country. She's in Canada now. But if life takes her back to her country of birth - at one time not that many years ago, she expected to and made serious plans to do so, and although she expects to stay in Canada now, I'm left with the vivid reminder that she might always go back someday - there is a real chance that I might someday call upon my right of residence in that country to move to be closer to her, perhaps to help take care of her, without going through the immigration process in that other country, which is lengthy, expensive, subject to all sorts of criteria and checks even a person who would not be a financial burden to the government would often find it difficult or impossible to meet, and probably remarkably more difficult than usual if I was on record as having actually walked into that country's embassy or consulate and rescinded my citizenship therein.

I had always imagined I could observe my responsibility both to my family, and... if, someday, I felt the call to put myself forward, and enough electors agreed, to my country, my loyalty to which I would confirm by putting myself forward in the first place, let alone with the clear oath of loyalty, or equivalent affirmation in lieu of an oath, I would have to make to accept that office!

And I would not make if I didn't absolutely mean. And I am inclined to take at their word anybody else who makes.

People really think I just might have to let one of these sets of duties burn?

And how much is the difference, really, between a dual citizen in their own right, and someone with a spouse with a citizenship in another country, with a derivative right of residence through that spouse there? Or with children with a dual citizenship in their other parent's country? Or someone with an inactive, but known, and immediately realizable, right of residence or citizenship in another country in their own right, such as the right almost every Jewish person, or person with a Jewish parent or grandparent, holds to Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return? Or a member of the Roman Catholic Church, the head of that church being the head of the State of the Vatican City? Or how about members of Aboriginal peoples where that nation overlaps the borders between Canada and the United States, and they hold citizenship in both not so much simply as granular individuals, but as members of their Aboriginal group?

I thought my Canada was too big to ever seriously have this kind of discussion. Or for its public officials to get called out on their "real" loyalties like this.

[Maestro]

This whole issue of single/dual/ triple/ or more citizenship is immaterial.

As we should all know by now, money has no citizenship, so why are we still demanding it from humans.

Back when, Marx made the observation that money would come to take on the rights of citizenship, while at the same time citizens would lose those same rights. That is precisely the world we live in today.

Progressive leftists should be focused on battling capitalism, and since capital now moves about the world with great speed and complete freedom, it is up to leftists to demand the same rights for humans.

Nationalism is a destructive force, and one upon which capital depends.

The left should be opposed to nationalism in all its guises, including diversionary arguments about multiple citizenships.
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On the wilds of the Drive

[elmateo]

I don't think "nationalism" is inherently destructive. I am currently doing research on the concept of "plurinationalism" in Ecuador which is being used by the indigenous movement to challenge neoliberalism. By appealing to recognition of a plurinational state the indigenous movement is creating the legal space to create more communal structures of the economy - which if successful basically prevents entrenchment of neoliberal individualist capitalism. Also what is exceptionally interesting from my perspective is how the indigenous movement unifies such a diverse group of nationalities, which if you look at them seperately have very different demands - in terms of the concept of autonomy, the andean Quichua have a very different concept of what autonomy might mean in comparison to to the amazonian peoples. And they have a lot of disagreements on these kinds of issues, yet, when it comes to opposing neoliberal policies, and pressuring the state, these groups have been exceptionally successful in organizing a unified movement.

A term that I have seen used is "interculturality" which is basically taking the concept of localized, plural, diverse, and fluid cultural identities and building a 'state' out of that. The concept affirms the diversity of the people. It is contrasted to a multi-cultural concept which is top down, and is also the complete opposite of a lot of the mestizaje policies of previous Ecuadorean governments (in Mexico these policies are called Indigenismo, or in the US "melting pot" - basically absorbing cultures into the dominant European culture while paying lipservice to the subservient culture). Politically, the movement demonstrates this concept of interculturality really well, because it is diverse, the groups themselves are constantly evolving reacting to their changing environments, but there is not the homogenization that one would expect, they maintain their interal disagreements and squabbles, but when pressed on political issues they unify with unprecedented effectiveness (only in possibly Bolivia could the indigenous movement revival the organizational capacity of CONAIE, the main national indigenous organization in Ecuador).

This is all a long way of saying: nationality is not a problem, identifying with a specific culture/nationality does not necessarily result in an inability to resist capitalist exploitation. In some cases it can be used as a way of opposing capitalism. Secondly, in the case of Dion, it demonstrates that multiple alleigances isn't the 'problem' that people make it out to be. And if Dion continues to identify with being French, all the power to him, judge him based upon what he actually does.

[Admiral Awesome]

[Corey]

[thwap]

If an ordinary MP can be a dual citizen, then the PM should be able to be a dual citizen. The PM is an MP who happens to have been elected party leader.

Besides, ... if our PM has such a strong tie to France, it gives us an inside edge on a claim to the French crown!

We could unite New and Old France together after a short Hundred Years War!!

Je suis malade aujour dui.

[HAHL]

[Senor Magoo]

I have to wonder whether it would be a problem for anyone if our PM had dual citizenship in Canada and the United States.

We'd be okey-dokey with that?
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ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,

[al-Qa'bong]

I have dual citizenship, so have the opportunity to vote for José Bové in the next French presidential election.

[TS.]

I actually think that such a situation iwould be substantively different from a PM with dual Canadian-French citizenship. We are not economically dependent on trade with France, or highly militarily integrated with France and we don't share a very long border with France and since the colonization of North America we haven't been invaded by France or fought a war against France. We are, or have done, all of those things with the United States.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

[Senor Magoo]

So?

Now we make a list of acceptable dual citizenships? In case the bad old United States plans to invade us again?
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ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,

[thwap]

Being the PM is a job. If one's dual-citizenship is affecting that job, then it'll be noticable, and the PM (and the PM's party) can make a choice as to whether that person can stay in the job.

But being a one-world, UN-worshippin' lefty totalitarian, ... this also bodes well for my plans for future world domination. [practical] heads of state with dual allegiances? Citizens of the World we are!

[TS.]

It isn't what is acceptable dual citizenship, I have no problem with private citizens holding dual Canadian-American citizenship. It is about the relationship we have with various countries.

And really, given how batshit-crazy the current USian administration is, the US might invade us again.
_________________
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

[al-Qa'bong]

[Senor Magoo]

So you're saying no dual Canada-Syria citizenships then?
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ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,

[al-Qa'bong]

I suppose you can't help yourself.
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"The purpose of government is to protect the weak from the powerful" Hammurabi

"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl

[sparqui]

This is interesting -- from Bourque: