EnMasse

[leftcoastguy]

We have been subjected to the spectacle of a Canadian police force being connected with torture and some of the people involved being given promotions for thier efforts. Not one single person in the RCMP has been held responsible or accountable. Today's press story is just the latest in an ongoing series of huge nightmares for the RCMP. Is it time to disband them?

Chief feels the heat from his own force
Zaccardelli grilled over botched internal probe

[DSquared]

So we disband them, then what? What goes in their place?
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This is pre-eminently the time, to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself-Franklin Delano Roosevelt

[leftcoastguy]

I think we should explore disbanding fire departments such as the Richmond Fire Department as well.

Then we could start up some new organizations with a different mix - filled with people who are representative of our communities instead of the usual angry white males who seem to dominate these groups especially at the top.

[Diane Demorney]

[lonewolf]

Glad you posted this topic. I've been thinking the very same thing. They've gotta go.

It's time to put the RCMP to the bed of history. They were a respected, necessary force in Canada's early days, then became a tourist attraction and now are an embarassment. Groups like the RCMP are full of tradition, the over attention of which makes them feel superior and prone to deny and even hide faults. They are an anachronism in today's world.

There is a long litany of screwups - the inability to 'always get their man' with the Air India disaster, the time a common burglar got into PM Chretien's bedroom (made them look like night watchmen who always fall asleep), the terrible tragedy of the Arar case, and many more.

Oh yeah... Clifford Olsen debacle.

What do you replace them with? I thought CSIS was the answer to that in many instances. In others, where the RCMP are the local police force in outlying communities, the provinces need to step up to the plate and have their own provincial police.

Zaccardelli is a prime example of over-inflated ego that is not warranted.
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It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required. WC

[Norse of 60]

[leftcoastguy]

lonewolf

Good post.

Some of us like to live our lives in denial and to blame others. The key to fixing something is first of all to admit there is a problem.

Cheers,

[elmateo]

The RCMP have never been perfect.

But every time a police force has a problem people claim "disband it!" is well difficult.

Maybe the RCMP should have been disbanded after it put down the Red River Rebellion? How about that charge into the Winnipeg General Strike?

And what about all those problems with Toronto's "finest" ?

I think we are dealing with problems a lot larger than the police forces, and therefore I think if we want to solve them, we shouldn't be looking for 'simple' and dangerous solutions like "get rid of the RCMP".

[sparqui]

Disbanding the RCMP in response to the Arar injustice or every single other questionable if not outrageous action (some brought up by elmateo) is pretty short-sighted and naive. Who is giving them their marching orders? Who is appointing their leadership? Who is examining their policies (or failing to do so)?

I find it sad that we had to wait so long to see Arar exhonerated and the crime perpetrated by our government and its agencies finally and officially disclosed. The media was practically silent about this miscarriage of justice until fairly recently. They acted as did both the Liberal and CPC governments as if all was well handled and a business as usual treatment of a security risk in our dangerous post 9-11 world.

It is shameful and we do owe Arar hugely -- not only for the injustices suffered by him and his family but for his courage to battle these crimes and demonstrate just how dangerous our anti-terrorism laws and fixation are to our civil liberties.

Rather than disband the RCMP, we should be demanding a full investigation of their and CSIS and the Depts. of Immigration, Justice and Public Safety policies and procedures with respect to the anti-terrorism legislation. We should be demanding further information about any other Canadians rendered to the US and deported and those being held without charge on security certificates. Arar has made his concern abundantly clear -- if only more people would listen to what he is saying.
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“If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a tractor.”

-- Gilles Duceppe

[leftcoastguy]

There are two separate issues here - the behaviour of the RCMP and the behaviour of the politicians. And speaking of the politicians just a couple of observations: the Liberals apparently were lied to by the RCMP. And the Liberals did set up the Arar Inquiry, although that appeared to be a delaying tactic to try to help them get them through an election. The wheels of justice can move slowly.

I think it is naive to think that politicians necessarily control the police. There is the way things are supposed to work on paper, and then there is the way things work in reality. I'm sure many people remember that NDP politician's comments in relation to an incident in BC not too long ago.

Even Arar has said that the RCMP's reputation is tarnished, and the RCMP thenselves must be held accountable for their actions. Arar has stated that the RCMP must pay to have trust restored in them by the public.

[sparqui]

[Vundo Draxon]

[Cartman]

[Hephaestion]

[Guêpe]

The question in this post is fairly ridiculous. And by fairly ridiculous, I mean out of line. And by out of line I mean, uninformed and well has no place.

It's up there with Mike Coren's anti-choice type questions. Just shouldn't be asked.

But since it was. I've voted no. And had my say.
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Dieu a dit : «Il faut partager». Les riches auront la nourriture, les pauvres de l'appétit.

[TS.]

I don't see why it is out of line. It asks a question without any loaded wording. The question is also provided with three answers, meaning that one doesn't have to decide between binary options.

If you don't agree with the premise of the question, then say so, but just because you disagree with the premise doesn't make it a question that is out of line to ask. Especially not on a progressive discussion board.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

[Hephaestion]

[Cartman]

[lonewolf]

[Hephaestion]

[Norse of 60]

[sparqui]

[Guêpe]

[Hephaestion]

Sorry... I'm on dial-up, *and* my computer doesn't have Flash, so I can't watch that.

Care to explain your rationale?
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"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin

[Vundo Draxon]

[Raos]

That was a very good segment. one of the funniest I've seen on The Daily Show. Is the clip the entire segment? I suppose I could just look myself...

[Hephaestion]

Thanks VD. But that still doesn't explain why this question about the RCMP is 'unacceptable' or 'out of bounds'...
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"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin

[HeywoodFloyd]

[TS.]

Guepe seems to be implying that the question in the poll is using the Cavuto mark. This is simply not true. The question is not loaded. It does not ask a question like "Have the Conservatives forgotten what it means to be human?" or "Do the New Democrats want us to cut and run?"

Guepe, I don't understand how you view the question in the poll as being in the same vein as the questions mentioned by Stewart. Could you please explain why you feel that it is?
_________________
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

[Norse of 60]

[Hephaestion]

Sorry, but I just can't get used to the "Vundo"... I still think of him as "Gir". So, I compromise, and abbreviate. It's not *my* fault that he didn't give more thought to his initials.
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"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin

[voice of the damned]

Draxon wrote:

[HeywoodFloyd]

[Senor Magoo]

[Guêpe]

[Hephaestion]

So you don't think that Zaccardelli's performance, where he steadfastly refused to admit that the force was at all in the wrong, where he out-of-hand dismissed any suggestion that any outside agency investigate the RCMP's handling of the Arar case, where he completely refused to even *consider* disciplining any of his underlings -- in fact, where he defended the promotion of several key players in this whole sordid debacle, and after which he was greeted back to RCMP headquarters with a standing ovation indicates that something *systemic* is wrong with not only the operation of the RCMP, but the very culture within it?

To my mind, there's not a whole hell of a lot different between what the RCMP (and CSIS, let's not forget THOSE bastards!) did to Arar and what members of the Airborne Regiment did to that kid in Somalia. Except the guys in the Airborne Regiment at least had the guts to do their own torturing, rather than "farming it out".

And what DID we do with that Airborne Regiment, by the way? Oh, that's right -- it was disbanded.
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"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin

[Senor Magoo]

[Guêpe]

So we want to get rid of all of this?

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/factsheets/index_e.htm

Let's just scrap all of that. Let's forget about the services that are offered, we shoud do away with all those pensions too and jobs too.
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Dieu a dit : «Il faut partager». Les riches auront la nourriture, les pauvres de l'appétit.

[Hephaestion]

Well, I gotta tell you, Magoo, out in my neck of the woods there is periodically *serious* discussion about throwing the local RCMP out of here and hiring our own regional police, simply because the RCMP are not responsive to local concerns.

Every year, they canvas the local village councils and the regional district (the BC version of municipalities) to find out what our elected representatives say are the list of priorities in terms of policing. Pretty well every time, stuff like traffic control, break-and-enters, drunk driving, speeding by logging and chip trucks -- all that stuff is placed ahead of The War On Drugs™, yet every year the local RCMP blows a *huge* chunk of its budget on helicoptering around all over the place looking for outdoor grow-shows, raiding indoor grow shows... I personally know of at least three cases over the past couple of years where a drunk driver was basically told that "all this can disappear" if said driver only gives the cop the names of two or three pot growers. (To their credit, in all three cases I know of, they told the cop that they didn't know any growers -- which was totally untrue -- and so they'd better have the fine.) How in the fuck is this "protecting" our communities?

It's not. It's all about screw what the local communities want, and take your orders from above; get your quota of pot busts in, or be prepared to explain why.

I could rant on and on about this -- and not just "pot issues", but about how the RCMP is NOT responsive to community needs. I say hell yes, let's disband them and get back to having a bit more control -- and direction -- over our local cops.
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"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin

[Senor Magoo]

Well, if you can all come together on it, I guess that's democracy.

I just find the baby/bathwater thing interesting. Nobody ever says "Affirmative action presents problems, so let's just scrap it", or "Socialized health care is such a boondoggle... let's scrap it". Ordinarily, when there's a problem with a useful service, you try to address the problem. I'm not really sure why we'd be content to assume that the RCMP is a problem that we're not smart enough to fix, therefore we need to bury it in a big hole and pour cement over it like Chernobyl.

Uh, again, unless maybe some of us just wouldn't mind if the law were to go away regardless, and making a bit of hay about the latest scandal is a good first step.
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ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,

[Hephaestion]

[Chester]

[Senor Magoo]

[Hephaestion]

No, I didn't Magoo. I brought that up as another example of the cops totally ignoring the wishes of the people they're *supposed* to be there to SERVE. If wanting better service from the cops that WE PAY FOR in this community is an "agenda", then I'm guilty. So are a lot of local councillors, mayors and regional district reps.

So... how do YOU propose forcing Zarcardelli to step down? Or even better yet, have him and his top-level henchmen investigated, and hopefully charged?

If that ain't gonna happen -- and it *ain't* -- I submit that the system at the very top is just as arrogant and unresponsive as it is in our local community. Further, I reiterate that if they can't (or won't) fix it, then it's time for some wholesale changes.
_________________
"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin

[Senor Magoo]

[Norse of 60]

[Hephaestion]

[HeywoodFloyd]

[Hephaestion]

[HeywoodFloyd]

I was thinking of more like Town of Winlaw Police. Two cops, an Atco trailer, and one car.