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Tehanu
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 Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:28 am Post subject: Pope scope |
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Seems that there are plenty of stories about the latest Pope's pronouncements. So in the interests of lowering thread proliferation, can I suggest they be posted here?
(Other threads include:
Pope pissed at Canadians
Pope challenges Spain over family values
Pope puts blame on God for Holocaust
Pope wants "Saint John Paul II
The latest: The pope doesn't want German priests to burn out, he says, in spite of the overwork generated by an ever-increasing shortage. And yet, the idea of married or female priests is still anathema. Ah well.
| Quote: | FREISING, Germany — Pope Benedict said today even he could not do everything that was expected of him and advised German priests not to burn themselves out trying to make up for the growing shortage of Roman Catholic clerics.
In his first unscripted speech of the six-day trip, the Pope, 79, said the Church could not simply advertise for more priests but had to pray to God to send them.
The growing priest shortage, a trend that is leaving many parishes without pastors, has led to calls for the Vatican to drop its celibacy rule or allow women to be ordained. Benedict is adamantly opposed to any such reforms.
... In the next 10 to 20 years, the church's ageing clergy faces a dramatic drop in its ranks as priests die. The average age for Catholic priests is already over 60.
The number of Catholic priests in Germany fell 29 percent between 1992 and 2004, according to Germany's biggest liberal Catholic network, We Are Church. In 2004, just 112 priests were ordained while 311 died, 359 retired and 37 quit the priesthood. |
The Toronto Star |
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unionist
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:42 am Post subject: |
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What about the Pope insulting the Prophet? Does that count?
Muslim anger grows over Pope's speech
| Quote: | A statement from the Vatican has failed to quell criticism of Pope Benedict XVI from Muslim leaders, after he made a speech about the concept of holy war.
Speaking in Germany, the Pope quoted a 14th Century Christian emperor who said Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things. |
What a sensitive guy. Is he going to announce recruitment for the next Crusade? |
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Tehanu
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| unionist wrote: | What about the Pope insulting the Prophet? Does that count?
Muslim anger grows over Pope's speech
| Quote: | A statement from the Vatican has failed to quell criticism of Pope Benedict XVI from Muslim leaders, after he made a speech about the concept of holy war.
Speaking in Germany, the Pope quoted a 14th Century Christian emperor who said Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things. |
What a sensitive guy. Is he going to announce recruitment for the next Crusade? |
Well, fortunately his recuitment efforts (or, as he says, those that God sends him) don't seem to be bearing a whole lot of fruit. |
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Tehanu
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Looks like the Pope's anti-Muslim comments are getting more and more attention ... and have created quite the furore.
| Quote: | VATICAN CITY — The Muslim world's scathing reaction to Pope Benedict's comments on Islam is the biggest challenge to face the pontiff yet and raises concerns over his security, diplomatic and Church sources said today.
... In his speech at the University of Regensburg, Benedict quoted criticism of Islam and the Prophet Mohammad by 14th century Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus, who wrote that everything Mohammad brought was evil and inhuman, "such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".
Benedict repeatedly quoted Manuel's argument that spreading the faith through violence is unreasonable, adding: "Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul."
... A growing chorus of Muslim leaders have called on the Pope to apologise. Muslim scholars say his comments show little understanding of Islam and some say Islamic countries should threaten to break off relations with the Vatican.
One high-ranking Church source also also expressed fears for the Pope's safety.
... The Church source said the Pope, who for years was a professor of theology in his native Germany, had perhaps made a mistake by mixing up his past and present roles. |
Toronto Star |
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Hephaestion
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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That's just piss-poor editing. That *should* have read:
| Quote: | | ... The Church source said the Pope, who for years was a member of the Hitler Youth in his native Germany, had perhaps made a mistake by mixing up his past and present roles. |
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rpeters
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Meh. Just another zealot spouting off. The NaziPope (tm) is no different than an extremist Muslim Cleric shouting down "infidels". Ignore 'em all, I say. |
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Caissa
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| I suggest people read the Pope's article which can be found at the BBC website. It appears to be a dry academic paper with appropriate attributions to his sources. |
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Tehanu
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Yabbut, Caissa, there are lots of sources in Catholic scholarship that can used to say bigoted things, aren't there? Just because they're properly attributed doesn't take away the fact that these are the sources he's chosen to use, and that these are the statements that he's making. |
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Caissa
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VanLuke
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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This is part of my post on BnR. I don't normally repeat posts I make on one board on another but I'm seething with anger (what a way to start my day!) and therefore wish to point to the hypocrisy of this guy.
The Requirement:
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Pizarro did not have enough men to begin his conquest, but he thought he might as well get over the formality of reciting the Requirement, that shabby document intended to remove the stain of innocent blood from the Spanish king's immortal soul. It informed foreign powers that their lands had been "donated" to Spain in 1493 by Pope Alexander VI (better known as Rodrigo Borgia, father of the infamous Lucrezia). That night off Tumbes the Peruvian heard this:
I, Francisco Pizarro, servant of the high and mighty kings of Castile and Leon, conquerors of barbarian peoples, and being their messenger and Captain, hereby notify and inform you ... that God Our Lord, One and Eternal, created Heaven and Earth and a man and a woman from whom you and I and all the people of the world are descended. . . . Because of the great multitude begotten from these over the past five thousand and some years since the world was made . . . God placed one called Saint Peter in charge over all these peoples. . . . And so I request and require you ... to recognize the Church as your Mistress and as Governess of the World and Universe, and the High Priest, called the Pope, in Her name, and His Majesty [king of Spain] in Her place, as Ruler and Lord King. And if you do not do this . . . with the help of God I shall come mightily against you, and I shall make war on you everywhere and in every way that I can, and I shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church and His Majesty, and I shall seize your women and children, and I shall make them slaves, to sell and dispose of as His Majesty commands, and I shall do all the evil and damage to you that I am able. And I insist that the deaths and destruction that result from this will be your fault.
Reading this document now, one wonders, like the humanitarian Las Casas, "whether to laugh or cry."5 It is at once primitive in conception and maniacal in grasp. Nothing proclaims more loudly the arrogance of European man and the meanness of the mental prison he inhabited. |
my emphasis
Ronald Wright, Stolen Continents, pp. 65-66
He should study the history of the Holocaust and the church's complicity by looking the other way and also the history of the church he heads before making such disgusting incendiary statements in times like this.
And maybe he should tell us a bit about his youth. |
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Tehanu
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Caissa wrote: | | Have you read the paper? I suggest that the reporting is being done out of context, and I'm no fan of Benny. |
Here's the link if anyone else is interested. (ETA: Posted while Caissa was adding it, thanks Caissa!)
This is the section that addresses Islam:
| Quote: | I was reminded of all this recently, when I read the edition by Professor Theodore Khoury (Münster) of part of the dialogue carried on - perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara - by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both. It was presumably the emperor himself who set down this dialogue, during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402; and this would explain why his arguments are given in greater detail than those of his Persian interlocutor. The dialogue ranges widely over the structures of faith contained in the Bible and in the Qur'an, and deals especially with the image of God and of man, while necessarily returning repeatedly to the relationship between - as they were called - three "Laws" or "rules of life": the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Qur'an. It is not my intention to discuss this question in the present lecture; here I would like to discuss only one point - itself rather marginal to the dialogue as a whole - which, in the context of the issue of "faith and reason", I found interesting and which can serve as the starting-point for my reflections on this issue.
In the seventh conversation (*4V8,>4H - controversy) edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion". According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably (F×< 8`(T) is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...".
The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality. Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practise idolatry. |
The rest of the paper is concerned with the "dehellenization" of the Church, issues of the Enlightenment, and the rise of rationalism; he decries the tendency to secularise morality (one of my personal bugbears, from the opposite direction) ... but at no point that I can see does he ever say or even imply that he disagrees with the characterisation of Mohammed or the Islamic religion.
I should add that there are PLENTY of examples in Catholic history of violent conversion to religion, as VanLuke has pointed out. Why not use one of them, instead?
This is another section that I find personally annoying:
| Quote: | Harnack's central idea was to return simply to the man Jesus and to his simple message, underneath the accretions of theology and indeed of hellenization: this simple message was seen as the culmination of the religious development of humanity. Jesus was said to have put an end to worship in favour of morality. In the end he was presented as the father of a humanitarian moral message.
... The subject then decides, on the basis of his experiences, what he considers tenable in matters of religion, and the subjective "conscience" becomes the sole arbiter of what is ethical. In this way, though, ethics and religion lose their power to create a community and become a completely personal matter. This is a dangerous state of affairs for humanity, as we see from the disturbing pathologies of religion and reason which necessarily erupt when reason is so reduced that questions of religion and ethics no longer concern it. Attempts to construct an ethic from the rules of evolution or from psychology and sociology, end up being simply inadequate. |
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Caissa
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Tehanu wrote: but at no point that I can see does he ever say or even imply that he disagrees with the characterisation of Mohammed or the Islamic religion.
To which I answer at no time did he say he agreed with this characterization. To me, he was using this exchange to set-up this question. And I quote from the paper " Is the conviction that acting unreasonably contradicts God's nature merely a Greek idea, or is it always and intrinsically true?
My academic background is in history. I'm used to using and seeing other historians use sources whether they are in agreement with them or not. As I said on BnR, I can't imagine teaching a course in Fascism or in the Holocaust without reference to Mein Kampf. |
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Tehanu
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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I agree, but I find it questionable that of all the sources that he could have used to make the point about forced or violent conversion, he chose that one. With the option of multiple sources, why not pick one that is more directly relevent to his argument, such as among the numerous examples in this history of Catholicism? Or even Christianity? Even regardless of the likelihood that he would be offending adherents of another religious tradition?
(I also studied history  ) |
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Caissa
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| I assume he picked it for the reasons most academics make choices; it best encapsulated the argument he wanted to illustrate. |
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Hephaestion
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Caissa wrote: | | I assume he picked it for the reasons most academics make choices; it best encapsulated the argument he wanted to illustrate. |
What, and examples such as Van Luke gave didn't?
Or maybe Joey the Rat was unaware of the King of Spain using the fig-leaf of religion to try to mask his territorial expansionism and butchery?
Or maybe the argument that Joey the Rat wanted to encapsulate was that Muslims are violent and irrational...?
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Caissa
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| I haven't read the other articles, H. I'm discussing the paper he delivered in Germany on Sept 12. Have you had an opportunity to read it? |
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Wee Mousie
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Dishonest to use wrong information
Sumayyah Hussein
torontostar.com
Sept. 15, 2006
For a religious leader giving a very public speech about the subject, Pope Benedict XVI does not appear to know much about the Islamic concept of jihad, a word meaning to struggle to uphold justice but pathetically translated as "holy war."
To prove or disprove a particular concept, one had better look at the concept itself, based on its actual sources, rather than evaluate it by examining biased sources or selectively referring to those who pervert the very teachings to which they claim to adhere. . . .
. . . The Pope is certainly free to disagree with Islam, but perpetuating misinformation is irresponsible and dishonest.
Link to Full Article
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Hephaestion
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Caissa wrote: | | I haven't read the other articles, H. I'm discussing the paper he delivered in Germany on Sept 12. Have you had an opportunity to read it? |
Yup. And I suspect that Joey the Rat understands Muslims about as well as he understands homosexuals. (Mind you, I am "intrinsically evil" and"objectively disordered"...)
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Caissa
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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I won't argue with your self-deprecating reference  but do you have an opinion on the article based on some knowledge of the subject?
I'm not saying my interpretation of the the paper is corrects but the sport of criticizing every comment the Pope makes is like shooting fish in a barrel. |
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Hephaestion
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Caissa wrote: | | I won't argue with your self-deprecating reference but do you have an opinion on the article based on some knowledge of the subject? |
Oh, that wasn't SELF-depracating... I was quoting Joey the Rat's considered opinion of all us queers. Is HIS opinion of queers based on knowledge, or prejudice? What about his opinion on Muslims and Islam? Is it based on knowledge, or bigotry and intolerance?
And if he's trying to make a point about "forcible conversion", why not use an example closer to home, like the Spanish Inquisitions?
Oh, right... 'coz that was the Catholic Church who was responsible for that.
| Quote: | | I'm not saying my interpretation of the the paper is corrects but the sport of criticizing every comment the Pope makes is like shooting fish in a barrel. |
Then maybe he should just shut the fuck up about things until he's cleaned up the mess in his own corrupt organization. Things like his pecently-promoted-to-the-Vatican assistant, formerly of Boston -- y'know, the one who protected all those pedophiles priests from discovery and prosecution all those years...
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Caissa
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think you answered my question. Am I to presume your answer is "no." |
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Hephaestion
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Caissa wrote: | | I don't think you answered my question. Am I to presume your answer is "no." |
That's okay. You haven't answered any of mine:
| Quote: | What, and examples such as Van Luke gave didn't?
Or maybe Joey the Rat was unaware of the King of Spain using the fig-leaf of religion to try to mask his territorial expansionism and butchery?
Or maybe the argument that Joey the Rat wanted to encapsulate was that Muslims are violent and irrational...? |
Despite the fact that I answered a *subsequent* one of yours:
| Caissa wrote: | I haven't read the other articles, H. I'm discussing the paper he delivered in Germany on Sept 12. Have you had an opportunity to read it?
| Quote: | | Yup. And I suspect that Joey the Rat understands Muslims about as well as he understands homosexuals. (Mind you, I am "intrinsically evil" and"objectively disordered"...) |
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Should I make presumptions about what your answers might be?
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Caissa
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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I don't understand the first question.
The second question appears to be rhetorical.
Based on the artilce I would answer "no" to your third question. |
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Hephaestion
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Caissa wrote: | | I don't understand the first question. |
See VanLuke's post up-thread. In short, if Joey the Rat wanted to talk about coerced/forced conversions, why didn't he pick a case likely far more familiar to most Catholics -- one from the Catholic Church's own history -- rather than dragging the Muslims into it? Unless maybe that *wasn't* his only motive...
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Agent 204
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Hephaestion wrote: | | In short, if Joey the Rat wanted to talk about coerced/forced conversions, why didn't he pick a case likely far more familiar to most Catholics -- one from the Catholic Church's own history -- rather than dragging the Muslims into it? |
Not to mention holy wars. But hey, it's not exactly the first time the pot has called the oregano green, right? |
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cueball
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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So, you really see no problem with the head of the Catholic chruch disecting the and itnepretting a religion he does no espouse, as a means of critiquing it. I mean, which Imam did the pope study under?
It is completely obvious that Nazinger is favourably reviewing this text, not merely noting it, as if to critique, as one might do say when quoting Mein Kempf.
| Quote: | | Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". |
Lovely, the Pope agrees that anything "new" that Mohhamed brought to the Judeao/Christian/Islamic traditions is evil and inhuman.
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Hephaestion
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Lovely, the Pope agrees that anything "new" that Mohhamed brought to the Judeao/Christian/Islamic traditions is evil and inhuman. |
Makes me wonder why the Islamic fundies don't like us queers better -- Joey the Rat's got the same low opinion of us, too.
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cueball
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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And then of course it is highly ironic that Nazinger make much of the fact that:
| Quote: | | The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion". According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. |
But neglects to note that the sage advice of the Byzantine Emperor when issuing this Christain "caution" against violence in the name of religon, come when the Byzantine empire was "powerless and under threat" during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402 by the Ottoman Turks.
Ha ha ha. Losing a war can make a pacifist out even the most brutal of tyrants. For the Pope to be engaging in this kind of hyporctical and self serving diadactism is a most resounding challenge to the purity of Catholic scholarship.
Rather than being "a dry academic paper with appropriate attributions to his sources," I would say this self-serving and jingoistic propoganda relying on the arcane and curmudgeonly musings of aged autorcrat desperately trying to save his skin, posed as having sagacioous import simply because it is and obscure reference.
Even moreso, one has to wonder why the Pope seems to be obsessing about this particular epoch of Chrisitian history where Byzantium is on its last legs and surounded and under threat by the encroaching Islamic hordes?
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Wee Mousie
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Hephaestion wrote: | | Makes me wonder why the Islamic fundies don't like us queers better -- Joey the Rat's got the same low opinion of us, too. |
They've probably never seen you in a burka, Hephaestion.
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Hephaestion
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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Burka hell... I show even *less* skin than that with a parka during a cold Manitoba winter! 
(Gawd, I'm glad I don't live there any more! Brrrrrrrr!!!!!!)
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Wee Mousie
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Pope apologizes for remarks on Islam
Here is one problem with religious fighting:
| Quote: | | . . . In the West Bank city of Nablus, two churches — one Greek Orthodox and the other Anglican — were hit by firebombs Saturday morning. . . . |
Do you think that The Holy Father might have taken 'apology lessons' from the Bush Administration?
| Quote: | . . . The new Vatican secretary of state, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, said the Pope's position on Islam is unmistakably in line with Vatican teaching that the church "esteems Muslims, who adore the only God.
"The Holy Father is very sorry that some passages of his speech may have sounded offensive to the sensibilities of Muslim believers," the statement said. . . |
Link to Full Article
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Tehanu
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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Well, technically it was that Vatican spokesperson that apologised, but hey, it's a start, right?
Now will the Pope please apologise to Canadians, particularly those of us who believe in reproductive freedom and equal rights for queers?
:holding breath:
:holding breath:
:gasp!:
Guess not.  |
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Wee Mousie
thereby hangs a tail
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 2295
Location: 'twixt cinder block and drywall.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe we should force our newspaper editors to use 70-point type headlines protesting the Pontiff's statement, and firebomb a synagogue and a couple of bingo parlours?
Yuh thing? 
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Tehanu
More or less, more or less
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 17673
Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:29 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, obviously we're just a bit too calm about all of this. Oh well.
Now, a proper Canadian response could be to apologise, sort of like when someone bumps into you, or calls you with the wrong number, and you say "sorry!" |
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cueball
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2193
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:45 am Post subject: |
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I say that this reference to this 15th century Byzantine Prince, is essentially the same as the Pope repeating the Blood Libel but against Muslims.
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:08 am Post subject: |
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I would suggest that Ratzinger was implicitly lauding the statements of Emperor Manuel II Paleologus by calling him "the erudite Byzantine emperor." Ratzinger may say that the Emperor addressed the Persian with "startling brusqueness," but all that he is criticizing is the method of delivery of the hateful message, not the hateful message itself.
I would further note that the "appology" issued from the Vatican actually appologizes for the "misinterpretation" of Ratzinger's words, not for the words themselves. I would contend that it is not an appology at all, and is in fact another swipe at Muslims, saying, "oh look how stupid you all are, you misinterpreted my academic statements as an attack on you." The Vatican has appologized for nothing, because they don't believe they have anything to appologize for.
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cueball
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Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:17 am Post subject: |
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No argument, he was explicitly referencing it in a positive light.
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A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything. |
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Clog-boy
Lucid Dreamer
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 1524
Location: Arnhem, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:53 am Post subject: |
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Well, it seems Papa Ratzi now has offered a personal apology:
Pope sorry for offending Muslims
| Quote: | Pope Benedict XVI has apologised in person for causing offence to Muslims in a speech in Bavaria last week.
He said the medieval text which he quoted did not express in any way his personal opinion, adding the speech was an invitation to respectful dialogue.
[...]
"...I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address at the University of Regensburg, which were considered offensive to the sensibility of Muslims," he told pilgrims.
"These in fact were a quotation from a medieval text, which do not in any way express my personal thought.
"I hope this serves to appease hearts and to clarify the true meaning of my address, which in its totality was and is an invitation to frank and sincere dialogue, with mutual respect."
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Only question that remains lingering in my head is whether he apologized because he really found out what he had done wrong or that he apologized just to prevent the Vatican&Co. from being bombed by radical muslims... 
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But I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | "...I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address at the University of Regensburg, which were considered offensive to the sensibility of Muslims," he told pilgrims. |
... for the reactions, not for what he said.
"Oh, sorry that you're all getting so pissy about this..."
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Last edited by Hephaestion on Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Clog-boy
Lucid Dreamer
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 1524
Location: Arnhem, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for answering that final lingering question, Heph..!
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Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood |
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virge47
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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I have to agree with you. It does seem like it was taken out of context. |
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virge47
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| This reminds me of the overreaction that occured when those cartoons came out. |
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unionist
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 2453
Location: Montréal
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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The Vatican, of course, did not apologize for the Pope's comments, but rather for the "irrationality" of those who were offended by it.
What strikes me in reviewing this thread is the apologia for the Pope's comments by those who have not read the article.
Every time the Pope quotes Manuel II, he does so approvingly. He approves the emperor's blanket condemnation of the Prophet's contributions. He unsubtly accuses Muhammad of hypocrisy, by suggesting that his opposition to the use of violence in the cause of spreading religion applied only: (a) when Muhammad lacked the necessary power; and (b) to "infidels", not to people of the "Book".
The most poisonous diatribe in my view is the following:
| Quote: | | The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality. Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practise idolatry. |
For the Pope, therefore, the Catholic God is rational, truthful, consistent. The Muslim one, however, "transcends" even rationality - so He demands blind obedience, reserves the right to lie to his adherents, etc.
No wonder (we may conclude, without much of a stretch) that Allah inspires suicide bombers, while the Lord Jesus does not.
Caissa suggested that the Pope was merely giving a lecture and quoting source material without necessarily agreeing with it. That is an unreasonable reading of this article. The question must be posed: What was the Pope's purpose in writing this article? My suggestion is that it was to convey the message that Islam is irrational and totalitarian, and that in practising violence to achieve its aims, it is being "true" to its scriptural origins. |
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virge47
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Now it appears at this time that this murder was related to the Popes remarks. At any rate it is a horrible crime and should be denounced. It is one thing to burn a Church, but it is quite another to kill an innocent person. Here is a link:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214188,00.html |
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unionist
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 2453
Location: Montréal
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| virge47 wrote: | | Now it appears at this time that this murder was related to the Popes remarks. At any rate it is a horrible crime and should be denounced. |
You are such a shameless scandalmonger. Even the article doesn't go as far as you do. What do you want, start a mass campaign in Canada to denounce the unsolved killing of some one individual in Somalia? Do you have any sense of perspective, or are you just extremely selective as to which deaths in the world trouble you?
I find your post offensive in the extreme, in case my first paragraph left any doubt on that score. |
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virge47
Self-banned
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| unionist wrote: | | virge47 wrote: | | Now it appears at this time that this murder was related to the Popes remarks. At any rate it is a horrible crime and should be denounced. |
You are such a shameless scandalmonger. Even the article doesn't go as far as you do. What do you want, start a mass campaign in Canada to denounce the unsolved killing of some one individual in Somalia? Do you have any sense of perspective, or are you just extremely selective as to which deaths in the world trouble you?
I find your post offensive in the extreme, in case my first paragraph left any doubt on that score. |
Actually you should read my words and not make unfounded claims about me. The article does suggest the possible link and I was careful to say it appears at this time. I never made any kind of claim or definitive statement.
Yes I have a sense of perspective, but it would appear you are the one lacking any perspective in your over the top reaction to a post about a POSSIBLE hate crime. Just for the record I oppose all hate crimes.
I also find your post offensive, just in case you also have any doubt as to how I feel about your inappropriate reaction. |
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unionist
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Joined: 22 Apr 2006
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Location: Montréal
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| virge47 wrote: |
Actually you should read my words and not make unfounded claims about me. The article does suggest the possible link and I was careful to say it appears at this time. I never made any kind of claim or definitive statement.
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You are unbelievable. Your Fox News item said "an attack some feared could be linked to Muslim anger toward Pope Benedict XVI." You said, "it appears at this time that this murder was related to the Pope's remarks".
Is it possible that you actually don't understand what you are saying? That you can't fathom the difference between:
1. Some fear the end of the world is near; and
2. It appears at this time that the end of the world is near.
I prefer to give you credit for some intelligence, and that you are deliberately, rather than out of ignorance, accusing some crazed Muslims of having killed a nun out of anger at the Pope.
How about waiting for this hypothesis to be confirmed? |
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virge47
Self-banned
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| unionist wrote: | | virge47 wrote: |
Actually you should read my words and not make unfounded claims about me. The article does suggest the possible link and I was careful to say it appears at this time. I never made any kind of claim or definitive statement.
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You are unbelievable. Your Fox News item said "an attack some feared could be linked to Muslim anger toward Pope Benedict XVI." You said, "it appears at this time that this murder was related to the Pope's remarks".
Is it possible that you actually don't understand what you are saying? That you can't fathom the difference between:
1. Some fear the end of the world is near; and
2. It appears at this time that the end of the world is near.
I prefer to give you credit for some intelligence, and that you are deliberately, rather than out of ignorance, accusing some crazed Muslims of having killed a nun out of anger at the Pope.
How about waiting for this hypothesis to be confirmed? |
I won't bother to defend what I said because it is obvious you prefer to place whatever meaning you wish to attach to what I said, but IF it is proven that it was Muslims who committed this murder in response to what the Pope said, then will you publicly denounce them here on this forum? Admit they committed a horrible hate crime on an innocent person? |
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unionist
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 2453
Location: Montréal
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| virge47 wrote: |
I won't bother to defend what I said because it is obvious you prefer to place whatever meaning you wish to attach to what I said, but IF it is proven that it was Muslims who committed this murder in response to what the Pope said, then will you publicly denounce them here on this forum? Admit they committed a horrible hate crime on an innocent person? |
Sure - if you retract your comment right now that "it appears at this time" that a hate crime was in fact committed, and if you promise to be a little more circumspect in the future.
Deal? |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You are unbelievable. Your Fox News item said "an attack some feared could be linked to Muslim anger toward Pope Benedict XVI." You said, "it appears at this time that this murder was related to the Pope's remarks". |
Sounds a lot like "officials fear the stingray deaths may be in retaliation for the death of Steve Irwin".
Don't recall you waiting for any proof before taking off running with that like an 8 year old off his Ritalin.
Why are you coming down on Virge for doing the same thing?
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