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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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 Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:31 pm Post subject: Mosquitoes, Manitoba, And Malathion |
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Here we go again:
| Quote: | Winnipeg will largely abandon last year's environmentally friendly mosquito-fighting plan in favour of a tougher approach, city councillors say.
This summer, fogging trucks will spray the entire city if a three-day period yields an average mosquito trap count of 100 or more in at least one quadrant of the city.
The city had limited its use of the pesticide malathion, allowing entomologist Taz Stuart to approve fogging in only the worst bug-infested neighbourhoods. |
I strongly believe that the only purpose fogging serves is to placate an angry public, and I don't even know that malathion even kills mosquitoes. Besides, for a great majority of the population, mosquitoes amount to little more than a nuisance. I realise that certain populations are at increased risk of West Nile, but I suspect they have to take many other precautions in their lives as well. Besides, are we as a society so concerned about our immediate convenience and comfort that we have to take the risks involved with fogging so we don't get bitten? |
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Reverend Blair
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2255
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I strongly believe that the only purpose fogging serves is to placate an angry public, and I don't even know that malathion even kills mosquitoes. |
Malathion does kill mosquitoes...adult mosquitoes. It also kills things that eat mosquitoes. We spend millions for a couple of days relief and make the problem worse in the long run. This is what happens when you have conservatives in power. |
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Reverend Blair wrote: | | Malathion does kill mosquitoes...adult mosquitoes. It also kills things that eat mosquitoes. We spend millions for a couple of days relief and make the problem worse in the long run. This is what happens when you have conservatives in power. |
I'm aware of the impact of fogging on mosquito predators, but there are still questions about the effectiveness of malathion. When you just spray the stuff into the air, how can you be sure it's hitting enough mosquitoes to make a difference? What about the possibility that some mosquitoes are exposed to to some malathion, not enough to kill them, but to eventually build up resistance?
Let's say you set up an experiment, and you set up 2 sets of mosquito traps, and also assume that factors in mosquito population growth (i.e. presence of water, soil moisture, weather, etc.) were the same at bot sets of stations. One set of traps you spray with malathion, the other you leave, and then you monitor the trap counts for a period of time during and after. Whould you notice a difference in the trap counts of both sets of traps? |
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Agent 204
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 275
Location: Berlin, Upper Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| aristotleded24 wrote: |
I'm aware of the impact of fogging on mosquito predators, but there are still questions about the effectiveness of malathion. When you just spray the stuff into the air, how can you be sure it's hitting enough mosquitoes to make a difference? What about the possibility that some mosquitoes are exposed to to some malathion, not enough to kill them, but to eventually build up resistance? |
Actually, the resistance builds up over generations, because what happens is the mosquitoes are exposed to enough malathion to kill some of them. The ones that survive, obviously, are the ones that reproduce, and pass on their better ability to survive a blast of malathion to their offspring.
| Quote: |
Let's say you set up an experiment, and you set up 2 sets of mosquito traps, and also assume that factors in mosquito population growth (i.e. presence of water, soil moisture, weather, etc.) were the same at bot sets of stations. One set of traps you spray with malathion, the other you leave, and then you monitor the trap counts for a period of time during and after. Whould you notice a difference in the trap counts of both sets of traps? |
I think you'd notice a difference, but only for a short time, and not as big a difference as you would have noticed when malathion was first introduced (for the reasons mentioned above). The reason the effect would be short-lived is that adult mosquitoes are- and new adults are emerging all the time. You'd pretty much have to be constantly spraying the entire city by aircraft to have a really noticeable effect, I'll wager.
I suspect your main point is bang on- they want to be seen to be doing something about it. They also do larviciding in standing water, using a bacterial agent (a variety of Bacillus thuringiensis). There's lots of detail about it here; basically it only seems to affect insects in the orders Coleoptera (beetles), Lepidoptera (butterflies and moths) and Diptera (flies, including mosquitoes). Interestingly, different varieties of the bacterium seem to specialize in different insect groups. This extreme selectivity makes this much more environmentally benign than fogging. It also apparently has much more actual effect on mosquito populations- but it doesn't have the visibility of fogging, so they have to both larvicide to actually control the mosquitoes and fog so as to be seen to be doing it. |
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Reverend Blair
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2255
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm aware of the impact of fogging on mosquito predators, but there are still questions about the effectiveness of malathion. When you just spray the stuff into the air, how can you be sure it's hitting enough mosquitoes to make a difference? |
That's multi-million dollar question that the politicians don't like to be asked.
We have a lot of mosquitoes in my area because we have open ditches and a lot of low-lying areas where water pools. When they fog we see a drastic reduction in mosquitoes-I'd guess around 60%-for a day or two. After that, we generally see an increase over the original numbers.
A few years ago I was working north of the city where the mosquitoes were said to be terrible. They weren't noticeably worse than in my backyard, but what was apparent was an abundance of dragon flies and a lot of frogs singing. This was in a rural area where agricultural sprays take a heavy toll.
My main opposition to spraying is economic, not environmental, and I think that's way it should be presented. Frogs and dragonflies cost nothing once their populations are rebuilt. The city is relatively free of agricultural sprays and capable of limiting lawn chemicals.
The biologists and environmentalists need to get together with an economist or two and build a case that the city can save money by being environmentally friendly. Don't even call it environmentally friendly...call it a long-term, cost-effective mosquito control program. Say it's the best way to combat West Nile. Tell them it's to fight terrorism. Whatever.
As long as we keep pushing this from a strictly environmental standpoint, a certain segment of the population-mostly those with money and influence-will just write us off as tree-huggers. All the science and fact in the world won't change that. Start a campaign pointing out that they are wasting tax dollars and they'll be more likely to change their tune. |
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Diane Demorney
Bazinga!
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 4746
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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I second the dragon fly suggestion. I remember as a kid going out to Clear Lake - no mosquitoes! It was like heaven. Then I realised the place was inundated with dragonflies. Made sense then. Makes sense now.
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N.Beltov
chuffed socialist
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 163
Location: BC
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject: malathion, gassing, fogging and so on. |
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General whine: Please don't use the euphemism of "fogging". We're gonna be gassed. This stuff is a carcinogen (or there hasn't been enough documented study to show otherwise). But maybe it'll make the Mayor more popular with the "shoot first and ask questions later" crowd.
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Reverend Blair
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2255
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | General whine: Please don't use the euphemism of "fogging". We're gonna be gassed. |
Nah, we're supposed to lock ourselves in our houses with all of the windows closed. Then we're supposed to keep kids and pets out of the grass for a while after spraying. That's how we know this stuff is safe--if we stay away from it, it doesn't make us sick. 
I thought whether malathion is a carcinogen or not was still up in the air, with studies coming down on both sides of the issue. It is a nerve gas though. |
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Agent 204
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 275
Location: Berlin, Upper Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: malathion, gassing, fogging and so on. |
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| N.Beltov wrote: | | General whine: Please don't use the euphemism of "fogging". We're gonna be gassed. This stuff is a carcinogen (or there hasn't been enough documented study to show otherwise). But maybe it'll make the Mayor more popular with the "shoot first and ask questions later" crowd. |
Actually, I've been thinking about this, and strictly speaking, it's not a euphemism. Malathion is a liquid, boiling at around 156 ºC, and is dispersed as a fine aerosol (like fog), not a true gas. The question remains over whether the word "gassed" has more propaganda value, and I have to say I don't think so either. Sure, it resonates well with the kind of people you and I are likely to associate with, but to the unconverted it's likely to sound strident, and such people are likely to tune out the perfectly valid message- not a good thing if you want to turn public opinion against the practise. |
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:45 am Post subject: |
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Just heard on CKY that the fogging trucks are coming out tonight.
What do other Manitoba municipalities do? Brandon hasn't fogged since the 70s, although I believe we do have larviciding programs. The only way Brandon would fog would be if the Province ordered us to do so for health reasons, but that's never happened. |
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sparqui
Dog tired
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 5166
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:19 am Post subject: |
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The first year I lived in Winnipeg, I really didn't know my way around at all, or even the name of the district I was in. I remember sitting in my living room that first summer, windows wide open when the fogging trucks came around and I thought WTF is that odd smell.
I feel so stupid to be so out of the loop. I think that it would be well worth while to have the information more broadly posted as in the lobby of apartment buildings. I know that where I live, very few people get daily newspapers delivered including myself. Also, I consider myself a downtown resident, and that is never a descriptor used when announcing the next fogging run on the TV or radio news. Anyway, I just basically go by process of elimination as to when to close my windows.
Oh yeah, I wish they would find an alternative way to deal with mosquitos. If I owned a house, I would definitely be on that DO NOT FOG list.
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Mush
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 157
Location: Melonville
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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"If I owned a house"- so renters have to live with it, while "homeowners" can avoid being sprayed?
When I lived in Winnipeg I didn't really wory much about malathion. What bothers me more is this- which runs fairly well along class or income lines. |
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rinne
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 138
Location: under the big blue sky
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Just heard on CKY that the fogging trucks are coming out tonight.
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Aristotle was that for Winnipeg or Brandon?
I don't think it makes any difference if you are on the no spray list or not under the new regulations which allow them to spray everybody in order to stop West Nile.
A health crisis is the only excuse they need to poison us, no small irony in that. |
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| rinne wrote: | | Quote: | Just heard on CKY that the fogging trucks are coming out tonight.
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Aristotle was that for Winnipeg or Brandon?
I don't think it makes any difference if you are on the no spray list or not under the new regulations which allow them to spray everybody in order to stop West Nile.
A health crisis is the only excuse they need to poison us, no small irony in that. |
The fogging trucks were coming out for Winnipeg. As I've said earlier, Brandon doesn't fog.
If the city's doing regular run-of-the-mill fogging, then I believe they still have to respect buffer zones. It's only when the Province declares a health emergency that buffer zones aren't respected. I don't think that's happened yet. |
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rinne
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 138
Location: under the big blue sky
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks, I seem to be in a fog myself and yes that is true the province is supposed to declare an emergency but last summer we were on the no spray list and our house was sprayed. |
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| rinne, what's your sense of how people feel on this topic? Much of the media coverage and webpolls I've seen on tehe subject seem to suggest people are in favour of fogging, and the anti-foggers are portrayed as some sort of very tiny minority concentrtaed in the Wolsley area. Is this accurate? |
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rinne
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 138
Location: under the big blue sky
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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My sense is, from talking neighbours and friends, that we are probably pretty evenly divided it is just that the Wolseley folks are more united and active as a community in fighting this. Their resistance is then targeted as the views of the extreme few by the MSM.
I think we should all wear t-shirts that declare us volunteers in the longest running study on the effects of malathion. Or they could say, "An anonymous big chemical company wishes to thank the people of Winnipeg for their willingness to be poisoned so that we may grow wealthy."
I think the suggestion to approach this as a financial issue is the best one, was that Reverend Blair? |
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sparqui
Dog tired
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 5166
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| rinne wrote: | I think we should all wear t-shirts that declare us volunteers in the longest running study on the effects of malathion. Or they could say, "An anonymous big chemical company wishes to thank the people of Winnipeg for their willingness to be poisoned so that we may grow wealthy."
I think the suggestion to approach this as a financial issue is the best one, was that Reverend Blair? |
Excellent idea rinne. I am amazed by how many of my friends and colleagues think of malathion fogging as a necessary fact of life during the summer, or worse welcome it.
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“If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a tractor.”
-- Gilles Duceppe |
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:04 am Post subject: |
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It's official: summertime has started again in Winnipeg
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This is pre-eminently the time, to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself-Franklin Delano Roosevelt |
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| sparqui wrote: | | I am amazed by how many of my friends and colleagues think of malathion fogging as a necessary fact of life during the summer, or worse welcome it. |
What amazes me is the talk about the importance of eliminating "nuisance mosquitos." This phrase implies that the fogging is justified not on public health grounds, but because mosquitoes are annoying and we should get rid of them. What does that say about us as a society that we have a low tolerance for being mildly annoyed that we go to great lengths to avoid that, even though some of the long-term consequences are unknown or potentially dangerous?
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This is pre-eminently the time, to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself-Franklin Delano Roosevelt |
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Not easy being green:
| Quote: | Stuart had a bold, three-year plan to cut down on the use of chemicals, promising to make the city's mosquito-larviciding program fully biological in 2007 by using minnows, dragonflies and biologically based products.
"When you do that, you get natural benefits — and actually over time your cost would decrease," Stuart said in 2005.
But today, Stuart concedes that two-thirds of the city's arsenal against mosquito larvae is still chemicals.
"It takes time. It takes money," he told CBC News. He wishes he could have reached the 2007 goal, but "that's just not feasible, and you go within your means."
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Winnipeggers may, indeed, be becoming less likely to welcome the malathion trucks on their streets. In 2007, a record 1,389 residents registered for a 100-metre anti-malathion buffer zone around their property. |
_________________
This is pre-eminently the time, to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself-Franklin Delano Roosevelt |
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Where did the mosquitoes go?
| Quote: | | Normally bug-infested Winnipeg was bracing for an onslaught because of the extensive flooding in the spring, which many assumed would boost the mosquito population. But the skeeters never showed. |
_________________
This is pre-eminently the time, to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself-Franklin Delano Roosevelt |
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al-Qa'bong
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 6166
Location: A monistic vulgarity in which nobility and wisdom have been exchanged for a pale belief in progress
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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We had a few more gators than normal here a couple of weeks ago; then the dragonflies moved in and the skeeters purty well vanished.
I was in Edmonton just before that, in the middle of July, where everyone I talked to complained about mosquitoes. "So swat them if you don't like them," I say.
I don't care very much about mosquitoes, but I'd like to find a reliable way of neutralising (yes, the Pentagon's word for it) onion maggots and whatever subterranean bugs there are that ruin radishes and rutabagas. Diazinon worked great, but they don't sell it any more.
This year I planted onions in a layer of ash, then spread dried coffee grounds on top of the soil. It helped, but I still had to pull a few infested plants.
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"The purpose of government is to protect the weak from the powerful" Hammurabi
"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl |
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Raos
volatilis vir
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5480
Location: Petropolis
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah, Edmonton definitely stole Winnipeg's mosquitoes, they've been absolutely awful this year. They haven't been anywhere near this bad in about 15 years. A nuisance? Yes, but one hell of a nuisance. I'm normally not much of a target for mosquitoes, but this year I'm bound to get a few bites and swat a dozen of the suckers if I so much as stop at a red light in area with lots of grass and a ditch by the road. A friend of mine took a couple kids camping, and one got so many mosquito bites that people thought she had chicken pox. |
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