EnMasse

[Sibjyn]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17124786

[Maestro]

What is a 'Western" journalist, pray tell. There was some other story I saw the other day that quoted an unnamed 'Western' official.

That piqued my interest, and seeing this makes me even more interested. Is there some country or private business named 'Western'?
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On the wilds of the Drive

[Senor Magoo]

For that matter, I keep hearing the term "Middle East". Is it the East, or the middle?? And "East" of what? On a globe, anything can be east of us. BC is east of Ontario, if you take the long way 'round.
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ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,

[Sibjyn]

West of the Urals I think is where that term came from. I remember in India the area we know as the middle east was called West Asia. And India itself, South Asia.

But what's with all this east, west, north and south man? We're all like, riding this big crazy globe together, which is what I think Maestros point was.

[Sibjyn]

Oh and Sault Ste Marie, people tell me that's Northern Ontario! But it's right on the US border, how the hell is that Northern? Crazy man, crazy.

Thanks Maestro for bringing up these important issues.

[voice of the damned]

[Senor Magoo]

[al-Qa'bong]

[Maestro]

[Raos]

I disagree. I'll give you that such distinctions and labels can be used to divide and create an 'us' versus 'them' dichotomy and should generally be subject to scrutiny, but I don't buy that the term is meaningless or immaterial. Anyone's best intentions and sense of fairness considered, when it comes to international affairs 'Western' countries and their constituents are viewed and treated differently than those that are 'East-Asian' or 'African', to pretend that a generic 'foreign' sums up all the pertinent distinction is naive. I think deliberately avoiding such terminology rings as comically 'impartial' as Colbert's "racial color-blindness". One might as well say that the journalists died in ongoing violence related to the 'Otherwise-random-collection-of-authoritarian-countries Spring'.

Also: pendant trap is autological.

[Maestro]

[al-Qa'bong]

[voice of the damned]

[al-Qa'bong]

I knew that , but my typing fingers didn't follow directions.

Mebbe they were thinking of Raymond Williams' Culture and Society at the time.
_________________
"The purpose of government is to protect the weak from the powerful" Hammurabi

"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl

[Maestro]

[al-Qa'bong]

So what's your take on "western philosophy," or this recent article by the Angry Arab?

أنطوني شديد والتغطيّة الإعلاميّة الغربيّة للشرق الأوسـط


Despite your protestations, this is a widely understood term, and has been so for centuries.
_________________
"The purpose of government is to protect the weak from the powerful" Hammurabi

"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl

[6079_Smith_W]

Hell, it has only been 50 years since the term "third world" was coined, and nobody seems to understand its original meaning any more. It most definitely WAS an imperialist term - for independent nations.

I'd feel differently about the use of the term "western" if it were strictly a political term, but the fact is it is used commonly and has a range of meanings outside of that. And no, it is not just a product of right-wing radio.

Also, I assume the term is not just in reference to them, but to the media outlet they were working for - same as the fact that not ever person in the U.S. Army is necessarily U.S.-born, nor even a citizen. So no, the question is not just up to two deceased people to decide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world

I happened to catch the tail end of "The House" this morning (funny how I am not quite so interested in tuning in with their new host). Evan Solomon finished his piece on Syria by saying that it wasn't up to journalists to take sides, but to let "the audience" do so. Then he said all one had to do to "decide which side they were on" was to listen to Marie Colvin's last news piece, which he played.

Grrrrr....

[al-Qa'bong]

I heard the old vampire on TV yesterday, spouting this crap:

[bshmr]

Yeah. Dull, caked pot calling a kettle black!

I considered substituting highlighted 'USA' for' 'Syria', etc. and sending copies to TPTB but damned fools would imagine 'Syria' instead of seeing and comprehending 'USA'.

[Maestro]

[al-Qa'bong]

[6079_Smith_W]

Actually I think it is pretty clear. They were journalists working on a job for the westerm media - western journalists.

If they had wanted to mention their heritage or nationality (American and French) they might have said something else; but is it relevant to what they were doing there?

And using words and assuming that everyone understands your meaning? Yup. Dead giveaway for right-wingers. No one else ever does that.

Back to the actual topic, Colvin will likely be buried in Syria, given the difficulty of getting her body out of the country:
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/02/25/world/syria-marie-colvin/

[Maestro]

[Maestro]

Just happened to stumble across this:

Seven U.S. soldiers wounded after Afghan NATO base attacked

[Raos]

Here's an example of 'Western' being not exclusively applicable (and even suboptimal!), ergo it can never be appropriate or valid? Really? You're going with that?

[al-Qa'bong]

And if three had been US soldiers and four British, the article likely would have referred to the seven as "Western."

[6079_Smith_W]

You know, Maestro, I have words that offend my sensibility too, when I see them used improperly, like the tendency to lard "fascist" all over the place in completely inaccurate ways.

Generally I let it pass though, unless we're actually having a discussion about the meaning of the word. Because people are going to use the words they want regardless of what I say.

I have no problem with the idea that "western" is a bugbear for you. I get your point, though I disagree. But more important than what any of us here think, its usage is not just a fringe thing, nor even a right-wing thing; it is quite mainstream.

So, objection noted, but journalists and lay people on the right, left and centre are not going to stop using the term, because it does have a real meaning. Sorry.

And really, "insurgent" is more accurate than "activist"? Depends on whether the people running it were combattants or not, I'd think. Though really, it seems like splitting hairs to me.

[caoimhin]

[6079_Smith_W]

Some of us have touched on the actual subject of the thread.

It is only in my last post that I did not say something concerning Colvin, her death, and sadly, the way some seem to want to use her words to forward their own agenda, so I am not sure why you pulled my quote.

[Maestro]

[ronb]

It means white, doesn't it? Isn't this just code for "real person dies in dark-skinned people's conflict, so pay extra attention and cue the sad face emoticons white folks..."

[6079_Smith_W]

My question about the centre she was killed at (and apparently she died trying to fetch her shoes) was that we don't know who was running it - I have seen it refered to as a rebel media centre.

I'd say your term is more correct, but neither is entirely right or wrong. As I said, splitting hairs,

In case I wasn't clear, I consider someone working for a western organization as a "western journalist", whether he or she comes from Tunisia or not. al Jazeera is a middle eastern news agency, therefore someone working for them would be a middle eastern journalist.

There have been a couple of definitons of the term offered - including the one from Wikipedia, which seems to cover all the bases as well as pointing out the grey areas.

I would use the word in reference to the wealthier, more developed, and more controlling interests in Europe and North America. Not an exact term, but in reference to social and political interests, it is very clear shorthand. Certainly as exact as many of the other political and social terms we hear tossed about from right, left and centre.

In this case - French and American nationals working for a British newspaper - there isn't much room for confusion, IMO. Unless we want to go digging into their family history.

Here is another piece by Rick MacInnes-Rae about doing his job in a war zone, and other journalists who have been injured and killed.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/02/22/f-macinnes-rae-marie...

[al-Qa'bong]

[ronb]

It's a good question though, in spite of the noun confusion, which I sorta prefer to he/she.

If a white Anglo journo working for Al Jazeera is killed, I expect the headline would be "British journalist killed." A Pakistani journo working for the NYT might be "western", but just as likely they would stick with NYT journalist killed. Whichever elicits the most response from white people to get them to read the thing and give a shit.

[al-Qa'bong]

That's about how I'd put it. There isn't a lot of sense in trying to attach absolute meanings to terms such as "western" or "insurgent," and we ought to be aware how meanings shift within different contexts, and the reasons why certain words are chosen in certain situations.

Does anyone else find it odd that western journalism pretty well ignores the connexions between Iran and Syria whenever either is discussed?
_________________
"The purpose of government is to protect the weak from the powerful" Hammurabi

"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl

[caoimhin]

[Raos]

[6079_Smith_W]

[6079_Smith_W]

There had been speculation that the two were targeted by the Syrian army, located by their satellite devices.

According to one of their colleagues also injured in the blast, that is unlikely, because the army has been shelling civilians for days:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/24/remi-ochlik-dead-last-mome...

Paul Conroy, the journalist in the video, has since been smuggled out to Lebanon:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/28/paul-conroy-safe-lebano...

[al-Qa'bong]

Isn't it odd how the Western media isn't saying much about Bahrain, our little buddy in the Gulf?

[Sibjyn]

[Maestro]

[6079_Smith_W]

Oh for heaven sakes.
You think "western" is a term cooked up by the right wing so nobody will know they are actually talking about the U.S., Canada and wealthy European nations (because that is the meaning in this context)?

You think using that word is a deliberate scheme so nobody will think about Barack Obama and the U.S. Congress in stories about Afghanistan? You think they will get confused when they try to look "western powers" up in the phone book and drop it?

Look. April fools is at the beginning of NEXT month, and you picked the wrong day for slinging nonsense. If you don't like the word, fine. I think it is clear enough, even in a journalistic context. As a matter of fact, when talking about three separate nations - the U.S., Britain and France - it is probably the best word for the occasion, especially when the actuallnationalities are pointed out just a few paragraphs down.

But if you want to try and fit all that into a headline, good luck.

And my point about that other word is that we don't know who was running that centre where they were killed. There is not just one united faction, and I presume not everyone involved is a combattant. So yes, I agree the original word is unclear, but I can't say your replacement is that much better.

[al-Qa'bong]

Regarding "insurgent," that word has bugged me for the last ten years, as western journalists have been using it to describe "bad guys who won't just give up and accept us as their superiors."

I find it perplexing how someone could argue that "insurgent" isn't a heavily-weighted term used in western propaganda.
_________________
"The purpose of government is to protect the weak from the powerful" Hammurabi

"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl

[caoimhin]

[al-Qa'bong]

[bshmr]

Making the rounds again today, USA plays with any side to self-gratify:

Syria: Clinton Admits US On Same Side As Al Qaeda To Destabilise Assad Government
by Michel Chossudovsky and Finian Cunningham

[The Evil Twin]

[Maestro]

[al-Qa'bong]