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voice of the damned
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Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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Location: slandered, libeled
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 Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:21 pm Post subject: Should Google label "conspiracy theories" as such? |
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This writer seems to think so.
Interesting argument, though his near-exclusive focus on the anti-vax movement leads me to suspect that he might have ulterior motives(he doesn't seem nearly as concerned about creationists, 9-11 truthers, etc, beyond using them as examples in passing).
Also, while I agree that the anti-vaxers are cranks, I detect a slight bullying tone in his presentation of the movement. I can't quite put my finger on it, but sorta like "The anti-vaxers are just WRONG, okay? Got that? Good. Now what are we gonna do about it". Methinks the lady etc.
Plus, let's face it, anyone inclined to believe these theories is just going to take Google's labelling as proof of the conspiracy. And has anyone ever declined to read something because some self-styled authority told them it was harmful?
Ulitmately, though, Google is a private concern, so they can do what they want. |
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Senor Magoo
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Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Plus, let's face it, anyone inclined to believe these theories is just going to take Google's labelling as proof of the conspiracy. |
Hehe. EXACTLY. "Bought and paid for stooges of [ Big Pharma | George Bush | The Bilderberg Group | whatevs ]!!!"
While I completely agree that most Conspiracy KooKs are a few pancaking floors short of a free fall, I think that to start labelling even the most blatant lies and fantasies in Google would be too big a can of worms, even for them.
Plus, to be fair, we'd have to label any sites that discuss invisible superheroes who live in outer space and grant wishes if you think them piously enough as lies as well, and I think we all know how that would work out.
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6079_Smith_W
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Joined: 15 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Should Google label "conspiracy theories" as s |
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| voice of the damned wrote: |
Plus, let's face it, anyone inclined to believe these theories is just going to take Google's labelling as proof of the conspiracy. And has anyone ever declined to read something because some self-styled authority told them it was harmful?
Ulitmately, though, Google is a private concern, so they can do what they want. |
I don't think the term is used to dissuade any theorists; good luck on that one. And I agree the term is out there, and not likely to go out of fashion anytime soon.
There are always going to be popular myths, hidden truths and - yes - conspiracy theories. And it is always going to be up to us to check it out and sort the evidence from the deception. |
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voice of the damned
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Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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Location: slandered, libeled
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I don't think the term is used to dissuade any theorists; good luck on that one. |
Right. I think it's usually used to dissuade the uncommited from taking the ideas seriously.
Which is not to say that it doesn't have a legitimate pejorative use. I personally confine it to cases where someone argues that the behind-the-scenes forces are radically different than what they are commonly perceived to be.
So for example, I don't think it's a conspiracy-theory to say "The CIA plotted to overthrow Castro". It WOULD be a conspiracy theory to say "The CIA plotted to overthrow Castro, on orders from the King Of Sweden, who is really the guy running the global show". Basically, you're alleging a hidden network of players unknown to the general public.
But it gets problematic, because there are sometimes legitimate accusations of hidden influence, that are not a priori ridiculous. If I say "The only reason that polling firm keeps showing the Liberals in first place is because they have a lot of backroom ties to the Liberals", it could be considered an allegation of shadowy influence. But one that could very well be plausible. |
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al-Qa'bong
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 6048
Location: A monistic vulgarity in which nobility and wisdom have been exchanged for a pale belief in progress
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I have a friend who describes himself as a “libertarian independent,” and who believes that there’s a good chance the 1969 moon landing was, in fact, a hoax. Although he considers himself a genuine patriot, he hates the government and believes that virtually every elected official in Washington is a liar and a thief.
During a phone conversation, I pulled a prank on him. Knowing how suspicious he was of political intrigue, I invented the story that the U.S. government had a secret plan to take us off the dollar, and put us on the yuan, China’s unit of currency. I told him the plan was supposed to be top secret, but word had leaked out. He became instantly energized by this news. He was simultaneously outraged, inflamed, excited and utterly focused, as it reinforced every suspicion he’d ever had.
But when I confessed that I’d just made it up in order to demonstrate how gullible he was, the prank backfired. Instead of taking a moment to step back and re-assess his personal biases, he said it didn’t matter that I’d made it up, because “it’s something that probably is being considered anyway.”
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This Is a Test...
Some people just like conspiracies.
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6079_Smith_W
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Joined: 15 Nov 2011
Posts: 571
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| voice of the damned wrote: | | Quote: | | I don't think the term is used to dissuade any theorists; good luck on that one. |
Right. I think it's usually used to dissuade the uncommited from taking the ideas seriously.
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Dissuade? That implies conspiracy, no?
*grin*
If I read correctly I think I agree with you on a lot of this. The thing is there is no single rule, because every situation is unique.
There ARE real cases of covert operations, and there are commonly-held myths, just as there ARE people who see links and causes where there are in fact none.
And really, there is an element to this that has nothing to do with the evidence or lack thereof, but rather hangs on matters of faith, paranoia and fanaticism. And that goes for ALL sides, in some instances.
In my experience theorists of one particular conspiracy tend to take annoying behaviour, and insistence that you must believe to a point far beyond any religious door knocker I have ever met. Were it not for that, I think I might be a bit less reticent about actually discussing it. They can be their own worst enemies sometimes.
And that "it doesn't matter if it is real, because it might as well be" is as crooked as setting someone up for a false conviction just because you think you know he did it.
The best we can do is look at the evidence. |
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Maestro
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Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder if this conspiracy would be labelled as such by Google. That is, before it was exposed as being the truth.
COINTELPRO
| Quote: | COINTELPRO (an acronym for Counter Intelligence Program) was a series of covert, and often illegal, projects conducted by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) aimed at surveilling, infiltrating, discrediting, and disrupting domestic political organizations.
COINTELPRO tactics included discrediting targets through psychological warfare; smearing individuals and groups using forged documents and by planting false reports in the media; harassment; wrongful imprisonment; and illegal violence, including assassination. Covert operations under COINTELPRO took place between 1956 and 1971...
The program was successfully kept secret until 1971, when the Citizens' Commission to Investigate the FBI burglarized an FBI field office in Media, Pennsylvania, took several dossiers, and exposed the program by passing this information to news agencies. Many news organizations initially refused to publish the information. |
Note the way the program was exposed was by people committing a criminal act. If they hadn't, that particular conspiracy would likely have remained a 'conspiracy theory'.
No wonder US citizens don't trust their government.
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Senor Magoo
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Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I wonder if this conspiracy would be labelled as such by Google. That is, before it was exposed as being the truth. |
That would be reasonable, wouldn't it? Similar to asking "I wonder if this theory would be labelled as such by Google. That is, before it was proven to be a fact."
Thing is, the proven existence of a government conspiracy only proves that a government conspiracy isn't impossible. But conspiracy theorists take something like this as solid evidence that something they think is a government conspiracy must therefore be one.
I've seen posts from people online who believe that they're being "gangstalked", because people around them treat them strangely (!) and things in their lives can't be explained. Years ago I read posts by a fellow who was a terrifically talented artist and who seemed to genuinely believe that since he had once criticized Disney in some discussion board post, Disney "agents" were now entering his home and messing with his head by, among other things, rearranging small items like his toothpaste.
And if one were to challenge such a bizarre claim, what do you suppose would be held up as some kind of spurious proof of this? Why, COINTELPRO, of course!
| Quote: | | No wonder US citizens don't trust their government. |
Ah, yes. Representatives may come and go. People will die and others will be born. But nevermind that COINTEL was four decades ago, because "governments" are constant across time and space.
Similarly, the French government could, at any time, say "let them eat cake". They did it before, so they'll do it again.
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bshmr
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Joined: 22 Aug 2006
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Location: Central USA, Earth
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:50 am Post subject: |
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I wouldn't mind seeing a "Percent of Individuals Believing This" rating. While it wold avoid the arbitrary judging, if would introduce complex validity challenges. Isn't dismissing of 'conspiracy theories' because of distrust, or doubting/rejecting consensus?
Of course, I complicate the scaling immediately by suggesting a "True, Maybe/Sorta, False, Irrelevant" instead of a simple "True or Not" vote. |
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sparqui
Dog tired
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
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Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:06 am Post subject: |
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I like your thinking, bshmr.
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Senor Magoo
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Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I wouldn't mind seeing a "Percent of Individuals Believing This" rating. |
I think that would suffer from a disproportionate motivation on the part of (say) freedom-fighting, Jenny McCarthy-following anti-vaccination warriors who would most certainly spend a great deal more time than the average rational person "freeping" such polls.
Not to mention that if I ever see a Google result that says something like "Dinosaurs co-existed with Humans <- 82.4% 'Like' this" I might cry myself to death.
And if I visit a page that informs me that water is a liquid at room temperature, I think I'd feel a bit resentful that before I leave I need to click the "I believe this" button lest future generations of fact seekers be misled.
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6079_Smith_W
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Joined: 15 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Plus, I think there are some people who get off on being Cassandra.
And by contrast there are those who distrust anything other than the official line.
Seeing how other people feel would just encourage both points of view.
After all, we already have a popularity contest of sorts based on what actually gets covered in the media. The populist freedom of the internet is just kind of a blip in that.
So a rating system would be an interesting curiosity, but I don;t think it would have any effect on anything.
What would be far more useful is something along the lines of what bshmr suggests with the "maybe" options - separating known fact from conjecture. So many of these situations revolve around actual and alleged suppression and faking of information. |
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Maestro
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Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | | Quote: | | I wonder if this conspiracy would be labelled as such by Google. That is, before it was exposed as being the truth. |
That would be reasonable, wouldn't it? Similar to asking "I wonder if this theory would be labelled as such by Google. That is, before it was proven to be a fact."
Thing is, the proven existence of a government conspiracy only proves that a government conspiracy isn't impossible. But conspiracy theorists take something like this as solid evidence that something they think is a government conspiracy must therefore be one.
I've seen posts from people online who believe that they're being "gangstalked", because people around them treat them strangely (!) and things in their lives can't be explained. Years ago I read posts by a fellow who was a terrifically talented artist and who seemed to genuinely believe that since he had once criticized Disney in some discussion board post, Disney "agents" were now entering his home and messing with his head by, among other things, rearranging small items like his toothpaste.
And if one were to challenge such a bizarre claim, what do you suppose would be held up as some kind of spurious proof of this? Why, COINTELPRO, of course!
| Quote: | | No wonder US citizens don't trust their government. |
Ah, yes. Representatives may come and go. People will die and others will be born. But nevermind that COINTEL was four decades ago, because "governments" are constant across time and space.
Similarly, the French government could, at any time, say "let them eat cake". They did it before, so they'll do it again. |
I think my point was that labelling something a 'conspiracy' as opposed to 'a fact' may only depend on whether someone broke into an office and found documentation to prove the conspiracy was real.
As you point out, COINTELPRO was forty years ago, but it was carried on for twenty years before it was discovered. During those twenty years many people were affected by it. If during that twenty years if someone had said to the media that the government was carrying on an active campaign to discredit them and their organization, they would have been treated with the same disdain others are treated with now. If that break in and theft had never happened, COINTELPRO would quite likely never been discovered, and those people whose lives were seriously affected by it would still be 'conspiracy theorists'.
Does that mean we have to accept any and all 'conspiracy' theories that hit the media. Of course not. Some 'conspiracies' are pretty far-fetched, and often internally inconsistent.
At the same time, what convinces you that a COINTELPRO is not underway as we speak. Here's another conspiracy that turned out to be quite true:
Tommy Douglas spied on as he sought RCMP probe
| Quote: | Newly declassified records from the early 1960s show that even as Tommy Douglas called for a probe of RCMP spying, the Mounties were actively investigating the national NDP leader's political sympathies.
...Library and Archives Canada, which now holds the Douglas file, fought for six years to keep the pages secret. They were disclosed to The Canadian Press after a federal judge ordered the archives to review the nine-volume intelligence dossier with an eye to releasing more.
...Overall, 215 pages — about one-fifth of the Douglas file — are still completely secret while others have significant redactions. Portions of the earliest records in the file, from 1936, remain classified. |
One wonders if the still secret portion of that file contains any COINTELPRO style of disruption activities by the RCMP. Perhaps we'll find out some day, but for now the government is fighting in court to prevent that from happening.
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Senor Magoo
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Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | As you point out, COINTELPRO was forty years ago, but it was carried on for twenty years before it was discovered. During those twenty years many people were affected by it. If during that twenty years if someone had said to the media that the government was carrying on an active campaign to discredit them and their organization, they would have been treated with the same disdain others are treated with now. If that break in and theft had never happened, COINTELPRO would quite likely never been discovered, and those people whose lives were seriously affected by it would still be 'conspiracy theorists'.
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I hereby invite Anti-vaccination proponents, chemtrail kooks, truthers, birthers and "fake moon landing" cranks to break in to whatever they need to in order to provide similar support for their theories.
I don't believe I've ever suggested (nor have I seen it suggested by others) that conspiracies are somehow impossible.
But am I to provisionally believe that Donald Rumsfeld donned a black catsuit and crawled among the girders of the WTC with a satchel of nano-thermite simply because it's not technically impossible??
I take your point that yes, a conspiracy did occur, and yes it almost didn't come to light, but your post is starting to take on that whiff of "... and this is therefore evidence that _______ is real!".
For what it's worth, lots of scientists didn't live long enough to see their theories vindicated. Sucks to be them, but what else is there to do? Reverse the burden of proof just for them?
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Maestro
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Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2359
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:06 am Post subject: |
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What you said:
| Senor Magoo wrote: | | ...I take your point that yes, a conspiracy did occur, and yes it almost didn't come to light, but your post is starting to take on that whiff of "... and this is therefore evidence that _______ is real!"... |
in response to what I said:
| Quote: | Does that mean we have to accept any and all 'conspiracy' theories that hit the media. Of course not. Some 'conspiracies' are pretty far-fetched, and often internally inconsistent.
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I'll leave others to decide whether my comment causes a whiff of anything.
By the way, there is a pretty good rule as far as this sort of thing goes. That is, extraordinary theories require extraordinary proof. If one wants to do something to help people determine whether some idea is valid or not, that general statement would do more than any warning. It has the added bonus that it doesn't demean anyone's idea, nor arbitrarily rule any idea out of discussion.
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bshmr
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Light plays tricks as it traverses those thick and tricky glasses of that character Mr. Magoo. All sorts of of fuzzies and glares which we (usually) don't see do get responded to as though extensions of ourselves. .
Happens to all of us, not that that is any consolation. |
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Senor Magoo
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Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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Just in the interest of accuracy, the character of Mr. Magoo, while clearly nearsighted, refused out of vanity to wear glasses. Hence the squinting, the mistaking, the walking off the edges of high buildings, etc.
Anyway, I hope I didn't misjudge your post. You really did seem to be spinning some kind of cautionary tale, which seemed to me to be "we shouldn't dismiss conspiracy theories, because this one turned out to be true".
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bshmr
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Joined: 22 Aug 2006
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Location: Central USA, Earth
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | | ... Anyway, I hope I didn't misjudge your post. You really did seem to be spinning some kind of cautionary tale, which seemed to me to be "we shouldn't dismiss conspiracy theories, because this one turned out to be true". |
Why not misjudge? Even carefully chosen language gets construed into straw characters -- mannequins posed, assembled (or dis-), dressed (or un-) in a neighboring facade
Reviewing your. Senor Magoo, response, the first (unquoted) portion was more or less a fact-based correction while the second (quoted) portion ends by asserting a confused fabrication. This seems to be an irritating pattern (social dynamic).which has been complained of by several; however, please don't change it, merely be aware that it does PO many and might be interpreted as a creative alternative to mentioning Hitler in an internet thread. <g>
Now, wound up a bit, my button pushed, whatever. The problem is the relative validity of information which nowadays can be dispersed and preserved regardless of the consequences. Note the objective is 'relative validity', from my POV or framing. That said, consequences can be regulated or allowed for.
For example, pretend that 80% of individuals believe that a specific person/group assassinated an official, these believe that information is sufficiently valid. However, the 20% of individuals, who don't have learned (for various reasons) not to, don't. Or, instead of assassination ,let's try slavery and 'white supremacy'. Or, what if the ratio is 9:11 as opposed to 4:1 and changes over time. That is the reality, not what authority figures mandate or manipulate. |
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anne cameron
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Location: tahsis, british columbia
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Aaawww, come on, let's take it easy on Conspiracy Theorists, eh? It isn't as if we sit in the dark wearing tinfoil hats making up weird shite just to have something going on to help the old adrenilin pump...just because we're paranoid it doesn't mean we don't have reason to look over our shoulders! It's not as if the gubmint has been absolutely honest about everything. Can you say North American Free Trade? Can you spell Softwood Treaty? Do you think Marilyn Monroe died by accident? How do you think Jack Ruby got close enough to Lee Harvey Oswald to shut him up? Do you remember the Bay of Pigs? Gulf of Tonkin? Okay, so maybe Roswell didn't necessarily mean alien beings but SOMETHING other than swamp gas was going on there...and Area 51 and...Oliver North and Iran Contra and ...
and, after all, a member of the Hitler Youth is now Pope...
and all I'll say about here at home is ....Stephen Harper...
We might not have it all "right" but that doesn't mean we are wrong!
Tell me a good conspiracy theory and I'll listen. But it has to be a good one. |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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I think the link that al-Q provided totally nailed what defines the difference between a person who's genuinely curious and genuinely wants to find out the truth, and conspiracy theorists:
| Quote: | | During a phone conversation, I pulled a prank on him. Knowing how suspicious he was of political intrigue, I invented the story that the U.S. government had a secret plan to take us off the dollar, and put us on the yuan, China’s unit of currency. I told him the plan was supposed to be top secret, but word had leaked out. He became instantly energized by this news. He was simultaneously outraged, inflamed, excited and utterly focused, as it reinforced every suspicion he’d ever had. |
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voice of the damned
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Location: slandered, libeled
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | I think the link that al-Q provided totally nailed what defines the difference between a person who's genuinely curious and genuinely wants to find out the truth, and conspiracy theorists:
| Quote: | | During a phone conversation, I pulled a prank on him. Knowing how suspicious he was of political intrigue, I invented the story that the U.S. government had a secret plan to take us off the dollar, and put us on the yuan, China’s unit of currency. I told him the plan was supposed to be top secret, but word had leaked out. He became instantly energized by this news. He was simultaneously outraged, inflamed, excited and utterly focused, as it reinforced every suspicion he’d ever had. |
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One thing I've noticed about conspiracy-theorists is that they like any bit of information which promotes the idea that there is a conspiracy, and don't bother too much with internal consistency.
Like, a guy will go on about the Bilderbergers having all the power, if that's the topic of the moment, and then the next day start harping on about how the Trilateral Commission is the group running everything. Well, which is it, Bilderbergers or the Trilateral Commission? And why does either group need to exist, if all the important decisions are really being made over at Bohemian Grove?
I suppose it's possible that all these groups have their set place within the larger conspiracy, like, Bilderbergers is the Upper House, Trilaterals are the Lower House, and Bohemian Grove functions as the Judiciary.(Don't ask me how Skull And Bones fits in here.)
But the conspiracy theorists never really go into that kind of detail. They just list off a bunch of think-tanks and social-clubs with elite membership, and expect that to be taken as proof of something.
Which I think is what distinguishes a conspiracy-theorist from, say, someone making valid points about COINTELPRO or CIA subversion in Chile. |
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6079_Smith_W
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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And there is also the fact that some people simply will not shut the fuck up even when asked to do so politely, and long after they have made their point.
(I know not all people who believe in these theories are obsessed in this way).
I had a facebookfriend who used every opportunity to divert the conversation onto his favourite subject. He wrote about nothing else - ever. FInally I called him on it, and told him that even though he might be right, I did not care, since the event he was interested in was over and done with.
He continued with his off-topic interruptions, and I told him straight out that he needed to stop or I would cut him off.
He did not stop, and I had to ban him. I wrote him a private letter recommending he get some counselling. I am sure that step made me part of his conspiracy.
Again, I know not all theorists (after all, there are a few I think are plausible myself) are like that, but in some people belief verges on a cult-like brainwashing, in which anyone who does not believe in the way they do is part of the problem.
And that could apply to politics and religion just as much as these theories. |
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Raos
volatilis vir
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5472
Location: Petropolis
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| voice of the damned wrote: | I suppose it's possible that all these groups have their set place within the larger conspiracy, like, Bilderbergers is the Upper House, Trilaterals are the Lower House, and Bohemian Grove functions as the Judiciary.(Don't ask me how Skull And Bones fits in here.)
But the conspiracy theorists never really go into that kind of detail. They just list off a bunch of think-tanks and social-clubs with elite membership, and expect that to be taken as proof of something.
Which I think is what distinguishes a conspiracy-theorist from, say, someone making valid points about COINTELPRO or CIA subversion in Chile. |
To be fair, real conspiracies, being secret, tend to obscure the details a little. I doubt anybody making accusations about COINTELPRO before it was fully exposed could reliably go into that kind of detail, either. |
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Senor Magoo
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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That's actually another peculiarity of conspiracy theorists, and a definite divergence from scientific inquiry: the LESS they know, the MORE convinced they are.
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ronb
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| For the most part I've noticed that the anti-conspiracists tend to exaggerate and conflate the conspiracy theories, and also carefully choose the most deranged claims to cast doubt on the more reasonable ones. Bilderberg, for instance, was right at the centre of one of the more spectacular conspiracies of the 70s - the Lockheed affair. So while Bilderberg may not be where the world is run from by space lizards, it is a place where elites have gone in the past to collude. So the appropriate theory isn't space lizards, it is something like: how many other deals did Prince Bernhard broker that we never found out about? |
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6079_Smith_W
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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@ ronb
or the assertion that residential schools were run by a satanist torture and murder cult (extrapolated from a claim made by a psychic) and that the queen of england personally tortured children to death (based on a claim that someone saw her walk away from a gathering with some children who were "never seen again")
..of course, larded up with claims of radio interference being used to cover up the truth.
As if that assertion is somehow more horrible than the well-documented real torture, real murder, and real genocide which took place in those prisons.
And let's not question the point that that theory involves the CHurch of England and the Vatican having some sort of common cult. |
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ronb
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, Catholics and Anglicans both worship the disembodied head of Baphomet in their secret lairs. This much we do know. |
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voice of the damned
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | For the most part I've noticed that the anti-conspiracists tend to exaggerate and conflate the conspiracy theories, and also carefully choose the most deranged claims to cast doubt on the more reasonable ones. Bilderberg, for instance, was right at the centre of one of the more spectacular conspiracies of the 70s - the Lockheed affair. So while Bilderberg may not be where the world is run from by space lizards, it is a place where elites have gone in the past to collude. So the appropriate theory isn't space lizards, it is something like: how many other deals did Prince Bernhard broker that we never found out about? |
Except that the only people who seem to think that Bilderberg is of indispensable importance are the people who think that it's a coven of space lizards.
Someone criticizing the Lockheed conspiracy might mention, as a detail, that the deal was brokered at Bilderberg. But he's not gonna write an entire book about Bilderberg being the sine qua non of an overarching global conspiracy. And that's because it isn't. There are lots of shady deals that get inked at other gatherings, and even if Bilderberg had never existed, the parties involved would probably have found some other venue for catching up with each other(or if not, made other shady deals with other parties).
Conspiracy-theorists don't just say that dubious things have gone on at Bilderberg. They say that Bilderberg, in and of itself, is the whole reason that our world is the way it is today. And that it's run by space lizards. |
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bshmr
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| voice of the damned wrote: | | ... They say that Bilderberg, in and of itself, is the whole reason that our world is the way it is today. And that it's run by space lizards. |
As a mimic:: Okay, which ONE is wrong? <g> |
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Maestro
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:17 am Post subject: |
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Whenevr I hear someone talking of the worldwide Jewish conspriacy, or the Bilderberg thing or such like, I ask them how China fits into the equation.
All I ever get are glares...
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voice of the damned
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Maestro wrote: | Whenevr I hear someone talking of the worldwide Jewish conspriacy, or the Bilderberg thing or such like, I ask them how China fits into the equation.
All I ever get are glares... |
Better not show them this picture! |
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voice of the damned
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, and it might be pretty thin gruel, but conspiracy-theorists looking for an Asian connection might find this of some utility...
| Quote: | In 1938, a Japanese representative to the Welt-Dienst / World-Service congress hosted by Ulrich Fleischhauer stated, on behalf of Japan, that "Judeo-Masonry is forcing the Chinese to turn China into a spearhead for an attack on Japan, and thereby forcing Japan to defend herself against this threat. Japan is at war not with China but with Freemasonry, represented by General Chiang Kai-shek, the successor of his master, the Freemason Sun Yat-Sen."[2]
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I know that the Chinese Freemasons club in Edmonton used to have a bust of Sun Yat-Sen in front of it, so maybe there's something to this.
Still though, most conspiracy-theorists probably wouldn't want to quote a Japanese militarist speaking at a Nazi conference, so they'd probably take a pass on using that quote.
link |
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Senor Magoo
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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When I start hearing the KooKs saying "... who was just following the orders of our overlords in China" then I blame you.
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Maestro
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | | When I start hearing the KooKs saying "... who was just following the orders of our overlords in China" then I blame you. |
Don't forget it was the head of CSIS that said Canadian politicians were operating on behalf of their Chinese masters.
From Tyee:
| Quote: | | Then he (CSIS head McFadden) dropped his bombshell about "agents of influence" right in the lap of Peter Mansbridge. Some elected municipal officials in B.C., he said, were under the control of foreign powers. So were cabinet officers in two unnamed provinces. They were evidently members of ethnic minorities, manipulated by spies from the old country -- most likely China. |
Now there's a conspiracy theory for you! Chinese masterminding schemes to subvert municipal road clearing and sewage treatment.
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HeywoodFloyd
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Those crazy Chinese. After all, Canadian municipal politicians never move to higher levels of government. And it also takes a lot of work for foreign governments to get their fingers into municipal politicians, what with all the security checks they get. |
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ronb
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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I've heard that over the past 20 years or so, North America's political and business leaders have surreptitiously given almost all of our industrial capacity over to the control of a very tiny very powerful secret Chinese society.
Oh wait, no that one is actually true. |
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Sibjyn
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah so if that's the case why would the Chinese want to spy on us? The whole notion is simply crazy. |
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Senor Magoo
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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There's NO WAY a conspiracy would start with China and end one step later with municipal politicians. Someone needs to check out the School Boards. Dollars to Yuan they're elbows deep in it.
Also, there's no such thing as a Panda bear. Pause some Panda footage and go through it frame by frame until you see the eye holes in the neck. They've been using that little trick to monitor our zoos for decades.
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ronb
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The whole notion is simply crazy. |
That we would give the Chinese Politburo control over most of our industrial capacity? I know, crazy stupid, right? There's like four old guys in a room in Beijing who could decide to close all the Chinese ports and refit all the Chinese factories tomorrow, and about two weeks later, no more shipments of new clothes, electronics, car parts, toys, medical equipment, you name it. Hell, how much of our food comes from there now? Why oh why did we do it, I wonder. |
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Sibjyn
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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I think greed explains a lot of it. Lust for short term profits and quarterly balance sheets.
But the Chinese are communist and not at all interested in profits so why in the world would they want to spy on us? Everybody knows that Canada is beloved and everyone's bestest friend in the world. |
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voice of the damned
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:21 am Post subject: |
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Wow, this just gets spookier...
| Quote: | | The sodality of Freemasonry that evolved out of the European Enlightenment bears no resemblance, other than the name, to another society—one that finds its origins in Southern China. Styling itself in English as The Chinese Freemasons, this body might be better termed the Vast Family (Hongmen) or Hall of Universal Justice (Chee Kong Tong). |
Remember, denial is ALWAYS part of the cover-up!!
link |
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HeywoodFloyd
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | There's NO WAY a conspiracy would start with China and end one step later with municipal politicians. Someone needs to check out the School Boards. Dollars to Yuan they're elbows deep in it.
... |
sssh! Didn't Olivia Chow start out at a school board? |
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Chester
not crazy about trees
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| ronb wrote: | I've heard that over the past 20 years or so, North America's political and business leaders have surreptitiously given almost all of our industrial capacity over to the control of a very tiny very powerful secret Chinese society.
Oh wait, no that one is actually true. |
so kinda like the PMO? |
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ronb
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quite a bit. Without the occasional elections. |
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Maestro
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| HeywoodFloyd wrote: | | Those crazy Chinese. After all, Canadian municipal politicians never move to higher levels of government. And it also takes a lot of work for foreign governments to get their fingers into municipal politicians, what with all the security checks they get. |
I really hope this was supposed to be a joke. If not, you may want to rethink a few things. Like say, f'rinstance, what percentage of municipal politicians end up in the federal cabinet. You might have to 'get to' a thousand municipal politicians to get one provincial cabinet minister, and then hope at some point that minister moves on to a federal government cabinet position.
Then of course there are the campaign laws which demand disclosure of campaign contributions. Here is a bit from the BC gov re: campaign contributions.
| Quote: | Form R.1 Completion Instructions:
1. Record the date the contribution was received. If the total amount of the
contributions from a single contributor is made up of multiple donations
received on different date, list the date of each individual contribution;
2. Record the full name of the contributor. If the contributor is a numbered
corporation or an unincorporated organization, the full names and addresses of
at least two individuals who are directors, principal officers or principal members
of the organizations must also be recorded;
3. Record the address of the contributor;
4. Record the class of the contributor using Table R.1 – Classes of Contributors;
5. Record the amount of the contribution;
6. Record the “page total”, the total value of contributions on an single recordkeeping
page;
7. Record the combined total for all record-keeping pages. |
Doesn't leave a lot of room for secret donations from foreign governments.
On the other hand, your comment may have indeed been a joke, is which case I apologize for not getting it... 
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HeywoodFloyd
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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It was and wasn't a joke. Take for example the Cambridge Five. They got turned while in university and became prolific spies. There was next to no paper trail on them and they wouldn't want campaign contributions as that would be a giant red flag.
So you wouldn't need to pick up thousands of politicians. You could pick up promising university students and tend that crop.See where they go. They may never feel the hook until the line is being reeled in. |
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Maestro
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:03 am Post subject: |
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Yes. However none of the Cambridge five were municipal politicians, nor politicians of any kind for that matter. They were members of the British upper crust who looked for jobs specifically in intelligence. They were valuable because of who they were, and what they were.
The stretch from the Cambridge five to a Richmond or Vancouver council member is a very long and very tenuous one.
The other problem for this theory is simply that Canada has little or no real effect in the world, and is more or less subject to the whims of nations that buy resources. That explains why Stephen Harper is currently in China. Of course, he could be the person Fadden was talking about, albeit he is a bit of an upgrade from a local councillor.
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ronb
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Ok. So we've dispensed with Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy.
Care to move to The Manchurian Candidate under Trojan Horse Political Intrigue Spy movies for 500 please Alex?
Was Olivia programmed by brainwashing experts when she was a toddler in the knowledge that one day she would be elected to high office in Canada and could consequently trick the govt into surrendering our industrial capacity and resources to them for a pittance?
Maybe they got to Brian Mulroney too! And Paul Martin! |
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