EnMasse

thwap · Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:33 pm Post subject:

Well, now it's time to lower those royalties and profit-sharings and what-not.

And if the people of Libya have to sacrifice some of their bloated healthcare and their free education, in order to ensure industry stability and continued investment (to create jobs 'natch), well, that's just a reality that we all have to accommodate.
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Man! I hate them fancy-lads!

Maestro · Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:04 am Post subject:

Eric Reguly, featured often (but not often enough) on the pages of the G&M Report On Business, is one of the most honest commentators found therein. In today's issue he comments on the situation in Libya:

They bombed and therefore they shall reap

sparqui · Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:05 am Post subject:

Thanks for that, Maestro.
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“If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a tractor.”

-- Gilles Duceppe

al-Qa'bong · Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:40 am Post subject:

Maestro · Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:30 am Post subject:

sparqui · Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:31 am Post subject:

So you think Syria is safe from NATO's cross hairs? I certainly think Bahrain and Saudi Arabia are but I wouldn't put Syria on the same list.

I may be a cynic but I bet anyone Israel has a problem with is a safe bet for regime change.
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“If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a tractor.”

-- Gilles Duceppe

al-Qa'bong · Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:24 pm Post subject:

bshmr · Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:21 pm Post subject:

There seems to be more than western propaganda going on, perhaps merely not repeating the USAn stupidities in Iraq and Afghanistan.

AU desists from recognising Libya's NTC
Date:Today 09:48

TS. · Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:19 pm Post subject:

More evidence is emerging that Gaddafi's forces were storing weapons and ammunition in civilian buildings. The following video (sorry for the Facebook link) shows a major ammo and weapons dump in the Tajoura neighbourhood of Tripoli being cleared out by revolutionaries. As the video shows, this dump was under a civilian apartment building.

https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=148213828600134
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

al-Qa'bong · Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject:

TS. · Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:17 pm Post subject:

thwap · Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:37 am Post subject:

There's wrong on both sides, but thanks to harper, we're one of the bad sides.

And, for my money, Qaddafi was an Arab nationalist. Whatever his sins (which were many) I don't think he ever reached the depths of arrogant contempt that the puppet-masters of these rebels are going to display.

I still believe that they're going to put that country through the wringer and their puppets will start off thinking they can call a halt to imperialist depredations, but they'll find that the selling-off of resources and the slashing of government revenues and spending has made them entirely dependent on imperialists' military aid and torture apparatus.
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Man! I hate them fancy-lads!

TS. · Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:02 am Post subject:

An important test will be whether the NTC can resist a foreign "police" force, which is already being bandied about. It is quite clear that the Libyan people of whatever political stripe don't want a foreign occupation force under whatever name. If the NTC can successfully resist the desire of western powers to send one, that will be an important indicator of the rise of a truly independent democratic government. Conversely, if the NTC can't resist it, that will be an important indicator that what we have is a puppet regime.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

Senor Magoo · He's got a big one Joined: 11 Apr 2006 Posts: 8700

Apparently, the rebels refuse to extradite the Lockerbie bomber.

I don't have any quarrel with that, particularly since the guy has one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel.

But seriously, what kind of puppets are these that won't do as their masters tell them?? Are they NATO stooges, or aren't they??
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al-Qa'bong · Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:45 pm Post subject:

This example could be proof of their stoogeness, in that, since this guy is almost dead anyway, turning him over isn't going to accomplish much.

On the other hand, their not turning in this meaningless near-corpse makes the "rebels" look as if they're strutting their independence, giving them legitimacy in both the eyes of Libyans and the international community.
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"The purpose of government is to protect the weak from the powerful" Hammurabi

"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl

A_J · Fulltime enMasse Member Joined: 20 Feb 2008 Posts: 362

TS. · Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:52 pm Post subject:

From what I've been reading on Al Jazeera and on twitter, Tripoli seems to be getting back to something approaching pre-war normalcy pretty quickly, with lots of people out and about preparing for Eid. Particularly, it seems that as of today traffic police were back on the streets of Tripoli for the first time since the opposition forces entered the city.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

thwap · Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:34 pm Post subject:

There's good evidence that Libya had nothing to do with the Lockerbie bombing.
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Man! I hate them fancy-lads!

DSquared · Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:23 am Post subject:

So help me, I agree with Margaret Wente:

thwap · Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:14 am Post subject:

She's not even a broken clock that's right twice a day. She's the product of one of the universe's infinite monkeys banging away at one of the universe's infinite number of typewriters.

Don't trouble yourself with the mirage that she's come up with an actual thought that you agree with.
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Man! I hate them fancy-lads!

TS. · Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:25 am Post subject:

Characteristic sloppy logic on Wente's part, and defied by at least some of the realities on the ground. Clearly the opposition forces were co-ordinated enough to manage to push Gaddafi forces out of Misrata and the Nafousa Mountains, and then use those areas as staging grounds for the western campaigns which ultimately toppled Gaddafi's government. The idea that the opposition forces were badly coordinated and undisciplined really applied only to the army in the east. It is reasonable enough that the eastern army became the face of the opposition forces because it was much easier and safer for the media to get into the east to cover events than it was for reporters to get into the Nafousa mountains or into Misrata. That doesn't mean, however, that the media were not guilty of tunnel vision.

In a shameless display of double think, Wente wrote: "Just last month, NTC members murdered one of their own military leaders, although who did it, or why, nobody knows." So if nobody knows who did it, how can Wente claim it was NTC members? Wente has decided it was NTC members no matter than "nobody knows" who did it.

That piece was published six days ago. Goodness knows how long ago Wente actually wrote it. For all we know, it was written before the uprising and opposition advance into Tripoli. Her prognostications (and apparently gleeful anticipation) of a blood bath in Tripoli have been largely proven wrong. As I noted, Al Jazeera has been reporting that the situation in Tripoli is largely returning to a form of normality, not devolving into "chaos and anarchy".

It is also unclear exactly how much influence tribes actually have in Libyan politics. A dictator like Gaddafi, who had been in power so long, will have worked away on destroying all systems of loyalty that did not relate to him at the centre. It is possible that tribal identity will act as a destabilizing influence, but it is also entirely possible that the influence of the tribes has been vastly overstated.

Wente should stick to subjects she knows something about, like whining about "welfare queens" and "champagne socialists".
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

Maestro · Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:34 am Post subject:

TS. · Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:13 pm Post subject:

Maestro · Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:25 pm Post subject:

thwap · Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:00 pm Post subject:

Top Ten Myths About War Against Libya:

TS. · Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:00 pm Post subject:

Considering that if you follow the links in that piece, the author's own claims are wildly inflated, it does his own credibility damage. The piece has something of a "pot calling the kettle black" quality to it.

One example, there is a link in the piece "the first reports", claiming that the NTC's forces have "slaughtered people in Tripoli." If you actually follow the link, it is a BBC summary of the situation and talks about supply shortages in Tripoli, nothing to do with the NTC's forces "slaughtering" anyone.

Counterpunch has done itself no favours in its coverage of Libya. It has, itself, perpetrated the exact same failings as the mainstream western media - repeating claims from one side as if they were gospel. They should look to the log in their own eye.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

thwap · Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:29 pm Post subject:

I followed one link, to a story about the killing of black Libyans that checked out.

I was out in public and CNN was covering the rebel takeover of Qaddafi's intelligence building and the whole thing was sickening. All this time spent about uncovering the truth of the Qaddafi regime when the US-Americans will hide, obstruct, lie, to protect their own dictators.

Qaddafi was a bad guy but he was toppled by imperialists. The whole thing stinks to high-heaven and it will to Canada's shame that we participated in this travesty.
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Man! I hate them fancy-lads!

al-Qa'bong · Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:34 pm Post subject:

The overworked propaganda machines are going to throw a belt soon, although the "blah, blah,blah, Khaddafi is the evillist person on Earth since Saddam and Adolf" campaign is working.

voice of the damned · Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:03 am Post subject:

Tehanu · Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:15 pm Post subject:

Oh, my, this does wonders to enhance the credibility of the USA and NATO's mission/attack/war/action/thingummy in Libya. Looks like Libya was a handy "rendition" site for the CIA.

Hands up people who are shocked? Hands up people who don't see a tinge of hypocrisy in the rhetoric we've been listening to for the past 20 years?

Maestro · Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:32 pm Post subject:

Further to that from the New York Times via Reuters:

Documents show links between CIA, Libya spy unit

TS. · Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:50 pm Post subject:

It doesn't do much for the credibility of the USA or, for that matter, the Gaddafi regime given that both sides claimed to be all sweetness and light, and both of which deny any involvement with torture.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

al-Qa'bong · Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:10 pm Post subject:

The US doesn't deny using torture, they just give it a cute euphemism: "enhanced interrogation."
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"The purpose of government is to protect the weak from the powerful" Hammurabi

"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl

Slumberjack · Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:27 am Post subject:

thwap · Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:05 pm Post subject:

USA to Syria: "Don't get me wrong baby. You're brutal and all. But Libya's got that OIL!"
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Man! I hate them fancy-lads!

thwap · Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:00 pm Post subject:

William Blum's take on it all:

TS. · Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:35 pm Post subject:

I take issue (unsurprisingly) with at least some of Blum's points that you quoted, thwap.

1. The flag: It was a convenient symbol for people to rally around since it had applied to all of Libya. The process involved in producing an equally recognizable banner that would be largely acceptable across the country would have taken a very long time. Just think how divisive the process was in the 1960s when Canada was coming up with a flag, or the rancour that went on when Iraq was choosing a post-invasion flag. The green flag was clearly associated with the regime (as was the colour green generally - see for example Gaddafi's green book).

2. Armed uprising almost from the beginning: the people being attacked decided they didn't want to just lie down and die, so they stole arms from the forces attacking them. Is Blum suggesting that because they didn't adopt Gandhian non-violence, that is an indication of a planned uprising?

3. "Oil region": It is hardly surprising that the revolt started in Benghazi, since the east had been politically excluded from the Gaddafi regime. Some things are just coincidence. And the NTC needed money to fight the civil war and to fund their attempt to maintain a structure of government in eastern Libya. What other source of income did they have but Libya's oil? And also, it isn't that they started production, the oil was already flowing under Gaddafi. They continued production until Gaddafi's forces sabotaged the drilling equipment to try to defund the NTC.

4. Central bank: Yes, this is admittedly somewhat odd, but as with the oil, the NTC was trying to set up an alternative government, it was by that point no longer a protest movement.

5. International support: I read over the article and can't see what "beforehand" support Blum is talking about. The rest of the argument seems to boil down to "Al Jazeera overblew stories and the western world reacted quickly."
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

bshmr · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:02 am Post subject:

Not an ideal source though a handy one of several. IIRC, the ATimes blistered the whole adventure as Sarkozy's wounded pride enable or something like that. This article isn't as critical.

Libya Could Be the Last Place Where the West is Allowed
to Intervene

"Every major rising power opposed the
exhortations of London and Paris to go to war"

By Shashank Joshi
The Telegraph (UK)
September 3, 2011

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/liby...

Maestro · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:42 am Post subject:

thwap · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:46 am Post subject:

thwap · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:04 pm Post subject:

Chris Hedges ...

TS. · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:11 pm Post subject:

thwap · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:26 pm Post subject:

TS,

Your deliberate inability to grasp William Blum's criticism of Al Jazeera set me off I'll admit.

First of all, Blum is a renowned expert in the USA's imperialist interventions.

Second of all, I would bet on the persistence of criminal US imperialism over the idea of the unblemished integrity of Al Jazeera.

But this is starting to descend into the realm of farce.

The rebels were armed and fighting from the very beginning. That doesn't just happen. Are you going to suggest that the reason the Syrian rebels haven't started a major military action against their dictatorship is because they're not as angry yet as the Libyan rebels were?

If the people of Libya wanted to rise up against a dictator, they would have my blessing. If they did it on their own, then whatever happened would be their affair.

By meddling in their affairs, and meddling for reasons of imperialist self-interest, we, as Canadians are IMPLICATED in the future crimes of our stooges.
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Man! I hate them fancy-lads!

bshmr · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:47 pm Post subject:

Here's more fuel. Note, some point at France as primary with what seems 'better' reason.

Maestro · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:22 pm Post subject:

al-Qa'bong · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:02 pm Post subject:

TS. · Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:17 am Post subject:

al-Qa'bong · Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:49 am Post subject:

Slumberjack · Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:06 am Post subject: