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Sex work: Legalize it?
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Patrick Jerry
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Infosaturated wrote:
There is a shortage of strippers in Canada, I guess because they can't find enough Canadian women to subject themselves to it, so strippers can get expedited temporary work permits. If prostitution were legalized we'd be important them in the hundreds if not thousands because you wouldn't find enough young attractive Canadian women willing to do the job.

Legalizing prostitution isn't about women's rights, its about men's wants.


The "stripper shortage" was contrived, entirely. It was simply a case of the government caving into pressure from some wealthy bar owners, mostly in the Toronto area. By allowing all there work permits they drove down wages and conditions, and that drove Canadian workers away from the occupation.

Your last sentence is partly right, but it ignores the fact that some women chose to make a living catering to certain male desires, and that while they have the legal right to do that, ... prostitution itself has NEVER been illegal in Canada ... the laws surrounding it, on advertising and common premises, tend to increase unduly the level of risk.
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Senor Magoo
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Also, what about the hotel owner who rents out rooms to sex workers, or agencies who provided, say, phones, newspaper ads, and criminal records checks? I guess if there was kind of a paper trail for 'services rendered in exchange for...' ?


I can't see that being a problem. Money earned through prostitution isn't tainted forever. I think the "avails" have to be direct, not indirect.
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Infosaturated
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So far I see two basic arguments in favor of legalization of prostitution.

1) An individual’s right to dominion over their own body including selling sexual services.

2) Harm reduction, legalization in order to reduce harm to sex workers in the form of disease, rape and police harassment

It the first case the "right" is not involatile. For example, people do not have the right to work for less than minimum wage. Someone who is unemployed might argue that being prevented for working for less interferes with their right to work. As a society we have decided that in practice the individual's right to work for less than minimum wage is secondary to the rights of workers in general to earn a living wage. No minimum wage is really a means to force individual workers into competition leading to exploitation.

One could argue that all citizens of the world should be able to immigrate anywhere they want, and in principle I agree, but in practice, Canada would be a very different place if we simply opened our borders to unlimited immigration.

So then the question becomes, does the individual's right to sell their sexual services trump any collective rights that might be adversely affected?

The second reason, to reduce harm suffered by sex workers from disease, violence, police abuse, etc. is only valid if legalization actually does lead to those outcomes. Even if it does, it still must be measured against possible harm to the general public.

It is true that we don't have an endless list of countries where prostitution is legal to examine. But, we do have several, and they are westernized countries (or states). Nevada, Austrailia, Finland, Sweden (was), are all different from Canada but I think they are somewhat comparable. That something has failed in some countries still doesn't mean it couldn't be successful in Canada but I do think it is significant evidence that needs to be seriously examined.

If we didn't have examples to evaluate then we would have nothing but pure theory and hypotheses to base our thinking on, but examples do exist which appear to disprove the theories of harm reduction.

I am bothered by the lack of empirical evidence and success stories presented by sex-worker organizations. That I haven't found any doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but I would think any proof would be proclaimed front and center on all pro sex-work sites.

Senor Magoo wrote:
You're talking about the outcomes of legalization, and at the same time claiming "It has been demonstrated that criminalizing prostitution DOES reduce harm."

Which studies are those? And in which countries? Seems to me there are only a handful of countries that have (recently) tried the decriminalization route. Where did they find a country that had always had legal prostitution in order to try criminalizing it to see if that reduces harm? Which country or countries was that?


In 1999, after years of research and study, Sweden passed legislation that a) criminalizes the buying of sex, and b) decriminalizes the selling of sex.

Sweden. Prostitution was legal for decades in Sweden. That changed in 1999. To be fair, one pro-sex-worker site I came across mentioned a Finnish report that claimed the success Sweden is just skin-deep because prostitutes were only driven off the streets not out of the business. Unfortunately I haven't come across the original report so I don't know whether or not it was based on empirical or anecdotal evidence or supposition. Sex work is big bucks so it is quite possible that Finland has ulterior motives in criticizing the outcomes in Sweden.

The following is an essay with no links to back up claims but I don't feel like hunting up official data tonight:

http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_sweden.html

Quote:
In just five years Sweden has dramatically reduced the number of its women in prostitution. In the capital city of Stockholm the number of women in street prostitution has been reduced by two thirds, and the number of johns has been reduced by 80%. There are other major Swedish cities where street prostitution has all but disappeared. Gone too, for the most part, are the renowned Swedish brothels and massage parlors which proliferated during the last three decades of the twentieth century when prostitution in Sweden was legal.

In addition, the number of foreign women now being trafficked into Sweden for sex is nil. The Swedish government estimates that in the last few years only 200 to 400 women and girls have been annually sex trafficked into Sweden, a figure that's negligible compared to the 15,000 to 17,000 females yearly sex trafficked into neighboring Finland.
....


Another point that seems ignored everywhere is the impact on POC. One aspect I kept noticing when reading reports on the various countries that have legalized is the issue of importing women to provide prostitution services. Depending on the area of the world one is in that could include many women from predominently white countries. Nevertheless a large percentage come from countries with predominently women of color. Some countries report as much as 75% of sex-workers are imported. It seems inevidable to me that a large percentage of female immigrants come from countries that are predominently POC. Anecdotal evidence suggest clients request "exotic" women and women who can't speak English. One Asian ex-prostitute said her boss told her to pretend not to speak English well.

POC already battle racism, even here in Canada where we like to pretend it doesn't exist. If, as I suspect, women of color are over-represented in prostitution how will that impact women of color in general? FN people and POC are over-represented in poverty stricken communities. I don't think it's a stretch to assume that if prostitution were legalized more women would be recruited from these neighbourhoods than middle-class or rich neighbourhoods.

Legalized prostitution won't just negatively impact women in general based on the comodification of sexual services, it will impact women of color even more.

I don't like walking down Saint Catherine street or St. Laurent passing strip joints with pictures of scantily clad women. I don't like the message it sends about what women are for. I don't like the impact it has on my daughter to live in a society where her body parts are commodified. It's true that legalization would result in red-light districts, but it would also result in advertising, and sex tourists, and further acceptance of the view that buying and selling women's bodies is acceptable treatment of women. If I were also a minority woman, I would hate it even more.

I don't think the rights of sex-workers trump the rights of the general public, particularly women, to not be subjected to the negative impact of the legalization of prostitution.
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chcmd
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This may be thread-drift, but this thought popped into my mind:

If prostitution was legal, and I had lost my (whatever) job and apply for EI, would I be obligated to apply as a prostitute in order to keep my EI benefits?

Shocked
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deBeauxOs
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chcmd wrote:
This may be thread-drift, but this thought popped into my mind:

If prostitution was legal, and I had lost my (whatever) job and apply for EI, would I be obligated to apply as a prostitute in order to keep my EI benefits?

Shocked


The thought gets weirder if you consider that both men and women would be obligated to apply for sex work to keep their EI benefits?

Rolling Eyes
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Tehanu
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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting article on whether or not stripping can be considered a feminist act, by a former stripper and daughter of a "1970s-era feminist."

Quote:
A popular narrative about sex work, earnestly discussed in Women's Studies courses throughout the nation and represented in countless "I stripped my way through college!" memoirs, is that adult labor is automatically, and by definition, feminist.

The argument goes like this: By using sexual stereotypes professionally, by "owning" them (using them consciously), and by "subverting" them (choosing which stereotypes to exaggerate and which to discard), a sex-working woman is participating in a feminist reclamation of both personal and economic power. Her deliberate use of gender-drag turns wearing a g-string and gyrating on stage -- or behind glass -- from an act done merely to pay her rent into a strong, assured and transgressive statement more akin to political performance art. You can't objectify me -- I am objectifying myself, shrewdly and self-consciously, in order to obtain power through money, and control through being considered sexually desirable.

It's almost as if sex work is the most feminist thing a women can do -- because if women are objectified every minute of every day against our will and without any personal benefit, why not grab the reins on that process and make a decent living wage at it? If women's bodies belong to everyone, some feminists argue, why not be the ones to profit from our own bodies instead of being consumed for free?

... The opposing narrative about sex work is that it's never a feminist act -- that by collaborating with the enemy (i.e., the patriarchal view that women's bodies are, by definition, public entertainment), women harm themselves and enforce old, harmful views about women as erotic property.

According to that line of thinking, a woman who strips to pay her rent is doing so at great personal and societal cost: She is either knowingly or naively working against feminism (the implication being, she's either a heartless mercenary, or too emotionally damaged to be held accountable for her actions). Because she hews to sex industry standards of appearance in order to maximize her income, she reinforces the societal view of what constitutes female beauty and health. She profits at the expense of other women who are held to the same standards of physical appearance, but can't or won't make the effort to achieve the same heavily rewarded cookie-cutter "Barbie"-esque look.

... Furthermore, by participating in a system in which men can buy sexual entertainment from women, the sex worker perpetuates the poisonous idea that erotic bliss is a thing that can be achieved without love, from vendors who do not require respect or even civility -- only dollars, folded lengthwise and inserted under an elastic garter belt. What do women want? Not political parity, not to be seen as human beings, imperfect and whole -- just money. Dollars. By smiling and courting our customers' wallets, sex workers mock the demands of feminism and allow ourselves -- and all other women -- to be reduced to no-account caricature. See? I told you they were all whores.


Lots more at link.

[edited to fix link]


Last edited by Tehanu on Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Raos
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chcmd wrote:
This may be thread-drift, but this thought popped into my mind:

If prostitution was legal, and I had lost my (whatever) job and apply for EI, would I be obligated to apply as a prostitute in order to keep my EI benefits?

Shocked


Are those on EI currently required to apply as strippers to keep benefits?
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Tehanu
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Toronto Star has an interesting article about post-traumatic stress disorder leading to, and associated with, sex trade work.

Quote:
... There are no accurate national statistics on the number of sex workers in Canada, let alone those affected by post-traumatic stress disorder, say activists such as Valerie Scott of Sex Professionals of Canada. And the Canadian Institutes for Health Research isn't aware of any national studies on the issue.

A 2003 study by California researcher Melissa Farley says about 68 per cent of sex workers surveyed in nine countries, including some from British Columbia, reported post-traumatic stress disorder on the same level as those who served in military combat. And her 2005 study says 100 sex workers interviewed in Vancouver had "an extremely high prevalence of lifetime violence and post-traumatic stress disorder."

Yet even with this perceived "silent epidemic" that could have potentially fatal consequences (if left untreated, the disorder can lead to suicide or drug and alcohol addictions) there are two major issues concerning the disorder and sex workers: First, advocates say traditional treatment methods won't work for women who lack the resources and social support to get better. Second, there's a debate about whether it's sex work itself or Canada's prostitution laws that put women in danger.

... Even when the disorder has a clinical diagnosis, there's still the hurdle of finding adequate mental health care. A 2006 Senate committee report said "aside from being confusing and frustrating to access, many times services are simply not existent for those who have a mental illness."

As well, Scott says, some therapists treating sex workers who have been assaulted blame the victim for her misfortune, so her group refers women to two psychologists in Toronto who have positive attitudes to sex workers but whose services aren't covered by OHIP.
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piechart
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:15 am    Post subject: quasi corollary Reply with quote

In my humble opinion there isn't a truly viable way to turn prostitution into a positive endeavor. it would be like someone having the occupation professional smoker. suffering is mandatory. There's no way to write off most of the losses.
Also just as people run into the store to grab something it's a matter of record that some john's go to see prostitutes and do things like lock their kids in the car. Who pays the dues?
It's a big load for any government to take on. It sounds like the cooking up of one more bureaucracy or institution that's a magnet to racket, graft and the slave trade to name a few things. Not even the teacher's union is free from organized crime.
Personally I think there's a risk of increased objectification of humans if that type of licence is allowed. If we continue to encourage the purchase and sale of anything, plutocracy will win.
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Tehanu
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A former managing editor for the Victoria Times-Colonist is considering starting up a co-op brothel, in order to create a safer environment for sex-trade workers.

Quote:
... Jody Paterson chuckles when she considers the career change from managing editor to madam of Victoria. But she says it was the people and stories she encountered on the news beat that ultimately led her to help the people she considers society's classic underdogs, sex workers.

... "Initially, I was against prostitution," said Paterson, 50, and the mother of three grown children. "I was in favour of eliminating it. I felt it was exploitative of women."

But, after working with women at PEERS [prostitute support group], she said she discovered many prostitutes are more interested in safe and healthy workplaces than debating putting an end to prostitution, she said.

... "The time has passed for moralizing about why men buy sex and why people sell it," Paterson said. "Let's step forward and into the reality of it and have a safe, fair, good workplace for it."


Toronto Star
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More men in sex trade: Winnipeg study

Quote:
A recent study of Winnipeg street youth found more males reported being involved in the sex trade than females.

[...]

An Addictions Foundation of Manitoba-sponsored study released last month surveyed 166 teens and young adults aged 14 to 25 who had spent at least some time in the past year on Winnipeg streets. It found 10.8% of the males surveyed reported involvement in the sex trade, while only 6.3% of females reported the same thing.

With a relatively small sample size and the self-reporting nature of the survey, not too much can be drawn from that male-female comparison, but the fact so many males reported involvement shines a light on a rarely reported issue.

[...]

Holmes said the male sex trade is much more underground than the female one. She said the trade is an exploitative one, where desperate and hungry youth will perform sex acts -- primarily on other men -- for food, shelter or even a ride across the country.

"Pedophilia is alive and well. The predators know who to use and they know who doesn't have a voice," Holmes said. "The kids are everywhere you can imagine and the predators are everywhere you can imagine."

[...]

McIntyre said those involved in the sex trade are very often "gay for pay," where they'll perform sex acts on men for money but would otherwise not consider themselves gay.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note that the stats are on street youth, not prostitution as a whole. I'm actually a little surprised that the numbers aren't higher, regardless of gender, but it's depressing nonetheless that prostitution and youth homelessness are linked. Talk about an indictment of failed social programs.

And this might be a bit kneejerk of me, but men who sleep with homeless youth? Asshole predators.
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bshmr
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meanwhile, on the non-political front, CBS's 'CSI: Miami' repeated the 'big money' n prostitution for desperate housewives and struggling pretties with an episode in which damned near every non-regular character fell into it.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I half-watched that episode (TV = background) and it pissed me off. But I find myself easily pissed off by CSI: Miami in particular, probably because David Caruso's mannerisms are so very annoying.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David Caruso is the only actor I know of who can give Shatner a run for his money when it comes to over-acting.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[continue thread drift] But at least Bill seems like he's enjoying himself. Caruso usually looks like he's suffering from an unusually painful bout of constipation. [/thread drift]
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I assume that a major portion of Caruso's portrayal is due to direction -- 1) his lines, 2) his character's bio, 3) primary figure in the series, and 4) experience, though limited, in other roles.

BTW, Jim Cary adores the character, Horatio Cain.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Antonia Zerbisias on legal issues and the sex trade; prostitution may be legal, but other laws make it extremely difficult for women in the sex trade to be safe, and even to have relationships. I hadn't considered the latter before, but of course, "living off the avails of prostitution" means that if my partner is a prostitute and buys the groceries, guess we're breaking the law?

Quote:
... The funny thing is, prostitution is legal in Canada. It's everything that allows a worker to safely ply her trade that will land her in jail.

... This was the battle in San Francisco during the 2008 election campaign. Proposition K, which would have corrected the criminal approach to sex workers, while redirecting police resources to traffickers and pimps, missed passing by some 60,000 votes last week.

... last year, SPOC [Sex Professionals of Canada] mounted a legal challenge to strike down three provisions of the Criminal Code: s.210, which forbids the keeping of a bawdy house, s.212 (1) (j) which makes living off the avails a prostitution a crime and s.213 (1) (c), which bans communication for the purpose of prostitution.

... SPOC says that barring bawdy houses prevents women from working in their homes, or sharing spaces with other sex workers. Not only is that a violation of their human rights, but it forces them into the streets.

Living off the avails means they can't be in normal, healthy relationships because their partners will be charged.

As for communication, to make a deal, women must climb into cars with strangers before they can safely assess the situation.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Open letter to Thomas Mulcair from a former sex worker: NDP porn wins my vote
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Minneapolis is posting johns' pics on a website, and has a billboard directing people to it.

Ouch. First, it's charged, not convicted. Second, is pubic shaming going to make a difference? Possibly, but it hardly addressed the roots of sex work. And I wonder how much it will do to reduce harassment of women, which this initiative is in responding to.


Quote:
... Whether teenagers walking to and from South High School or young women waiting at the bus, the unwanted solicitation by "johns" has left civic leaders such as [Council member Gary] Schiff fed up and ready to take a new approach -- if the rule of law isn't a strong enough deterrent to the men looking for illegal sex, perhaps advertising their public humiliation will be.

Enter a huge electronic billboard at the intersection of Interstate 35W and Lake Street, which fired up Wednesday with direction to [website address, see it at the link if you're really curious], a city website that prominently displays photos of men convicted or charged with soliciting prostitution within the past six months. Clear Channel, which donated the billboard space, will run the signs for the next six months. Though the photos have been online since 2004, the new Web address will be easier for drivers to remember.

The billboard marks the latest in several efforts to deter prostitution in the Twin Cities. In 2004, the city launched a website that shows photographs and describes the vehicles of offenders. St. Paul launched its own similar website in 1997.


Via Feministing.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Equality comes to Nevada's brothels

Quote:
Nevada's legal brothels have been granted permission to add male prostitutes to their stables after winning a battle over the wording of STD testing laws.

Quote:
A brothel industry lobbyist -- in what could be considered a befuddling double standard -- bemoaned the change, comparing it to the industry’s “Pearl Harbor.” He managed to voice concerns about homosexual sex entering the industry without ever saying “gay sex” or “homosexual.” Men were previously barred in Nevada from the oldest profession because codes specified that prostitutes must undergo “cervical” testing for sexually transmitted diseases, which ruled out men. Bobbi Davis, owner of the Shady Lady Ranch, a small brothel near Beatty, wanted to add male prostitutes to her stable of sex workers. And while there have been plans for brothels to hire men in the past, Davis made the first-ever request to have the Nevada State Board of Health add urethral exams to the guidelines. That allows male sex workers to be tested for sexually transmitted diseases.


The battle was won with the backing of the ACLU. The owner of the Shady Lady Ranch says her male hookers will have the right to decide if they want to service male or female clients, or both, a right the female employees also have. A lobbyist for the Nevada Brothel Owners Association told state regulators that with men now on the menu, he is worried about the industry's reputation.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hephaestion wrote:
Equality comes to Nevada's brothels


Boing boing asks, But will they end up being paid more?

Some readers comment:

Quote:
Actually, male gay-for-pay pays higher than any straight porn. I'm not sure what that says butt, there you are.


Quote:
I think that there is a glitch in the thinking that prostitution means "paid to have sex". The fact is, prostitutes aren't paid "to have sex" so much as they are "paid to satisfy their customer".

Kinsey stuff suggests that men would have to work considerably harder to satisfy a woman client (in this case, I think that orgasm will have to suffice as criteria for satisfaction). Probably not as many men want to do *that* as those who want to be "paid to have sex" (which I suspect means "paid to get their own rocks off"). http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/FAQ.html#orgasm


Quote:
I have quite a few male friends who have been hookers at one time or another. Fees have ranged from a bucket of fried chicken and a ride to the San Fernando Valley to enough money to get a high ranking UN official fired.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm. Can you re-phrase the question? Will they end up getting paid more than what?

Whatever. The answer is probably a resounding 'no.'
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

re:
Quote:
Equality comes to Nevada's brothels


Quote:
"Basically this is the first time in the economy of the United States that a male has actually stood up and said, 'I want to do this for a living.' And be protected under law to do it. It's just the same as when Rosa Parks decided to sit at the front instead of the back. She was proclaiming her rights as a disadvantaged, African-American older woman. And I'm doing the same. I'm actually standing up now, and hopefully I can be supported by the male community and be understood as a person. This actually isn't about selling my body. This is about changing social norms."


America's first legal male prostitute "Markus," who actually totally ishityounot just compared himself to Rosa Parks. He charmingly adds that he will not be taking male clients, "because my sphincter is not for sale."
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

New Orleans cops use ancient "unnatural copulation" law to turn prostitutes into sex-offenders

Quote:
New Orleans cops are busting hookers under a nineteenth century felony law against "unnatural copulation" (NOLA PD says that oral or anal sex count), which means that they have to register as sex offenders. And life as a sex offender is terrible:

Quote:
Of the 861 sex offenders currently registered in New Orleans, 483 were convicted of a crime against nature, according to Doug Cain, a spokesperson with the Louisiana State Police. And of those convicted of a crime against nature, 78 percent are Black and almost all are women.

The law impacts sex workers in both small and large ways.

Tabitha has to register an address in the sex offender database, and because she doesn't have a permanent home, she has registered the address of a nonprofit organization that is helping her. She also has to purchase and mail postcards with her picture to everyone in the neighborhood informing them of her conviction. If she needs to evacuate to a shelter during a hurricane, she must evacuate to a special shelter for sex offenders, and this shelter has no separate safe spaces for women. She is even prohibited from very ordinary activities in New Orleans like wearing a costume at Mardi Gras.

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F.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Canada’s prostitution laws unconstitutional:

Quote:
“These laws, individually and together, force prostitutes to choose between their liberty interest and their right to security of the person as protected under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms,” Justice Susan Himel of Ontario’s Superior Court of Justice said in Tuesday’s landmark decision.


http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/867332--canada-s-prostit...
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TS.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent! It remains to be seen how they will get past the fact that the Supreme Court upheld the communication laws in 1990 though.
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bshmr
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlterNet recently featured an article on prostitution as leading women's rights movements -- an interesting historical perspective. FWIW YMMV.
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Tehanu
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No great shock, the feds are going to appeal this.

Quote:
The federal government will appeal an Ontario court ruling that struck down Canada’s prostitution laws.

Justice Minister Rob Nicholson made the announcement today in the House of Commons.

... The judgment is subject to a 30-day stay during which the law remains in place — and the federal government can seek an extension of the stay period.


Toronto Star.
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TS.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Ontario Court of Appeal will definitely stay the Superior Court decision until it makes its own decision on the case. Then, the Supreme Court will stay it again until we get a decision out of them.
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Tehanu
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first appeal step in the prostitution law ruling is starting today in Toronto. TS, are you thinking they'll just bump it?

Quote:
Arguments in a landmark case that could decriminalize Canada's prostitution laws begin Monday in Ontario's Appeal Court in Toronto.

... Alan Young, the lead lawyer working for the sex trade workers, said he is surprised the provincial and federal governments don't understand the danger faced by prostitutes.

Regardless of the outcome of the appeal, Young said this case will eventually make its way to the Supreme Court of Canada.

There are also seven interveners in the case, representing 19 groups, including the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, the Canadian HIV/AIDS Legal Network and the Christian Legal Fellowship.


CBC.
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anne cameron
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are such morons when it comes to prostitution. The hypocrisy is mind-numbing. On the one hand we all seem to accept "you can't legislate morality", then we turn around and argue against prostitution because it isn't "moral"..

It's not a line of work I'd choose, not for myself, nor any member of my family. The laws are such they as good as guarantee the job will be dangerous and, probably, ill paid.

But we are such goofs about anything having to do with sex.

I really don't expect this pack of fundamentalist puritans sitting in judgement will make a move toward any enlightened changes. I can hear the uproar if they do..the children, think of the children...!! Well, I often do, especially the thousands of homeless girls who will give birth before their eighteenth birthday because society didn't bother to find a way for them to live without needing to resort to some form of prostitution.

I particularly think of the children when I hear (and object to) the term "child prostitute". A child has no choice, those who are trapped in the sex trade are not prostitutes they are slaves.

But get excited about the dim chance the Vancouver Canucks will win the Stanley Cup... they're expecting thousands to celebrate or mourn in the streets of Vancouver, I think tonight. If we could get that many people out in the streets hollering for decent protection for the homeless and the children we might not have such a problem with prostitution or the violence perpetrated against sex trade workers.

Willy Picton trolled the streets and most of the missing women were in the sex trade. Not that the cops, the judges, or the parliamentarians give a poop about them or their ghastly fate.

There was one (count'em, one) call by a cop for anyone who had bought sausages from the Picton pig farm and had any of them in their freezer to please contact the cops... DNA testing was mentioned...but then, ohmigawd, that was the end of that particular appeal to the public... mustn't make people gag... especially those who had eaten those sausages which probably contained human meat...

and they want me to believe a mentally challenged guy outsmarted the cops for how many years?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a good discussion in the early days of EnMasse (maybe it's the first pages of this thread!) about the pros and cons of legalization.

I'm convinced full legalization will be a good thing.

Slavery is slavery.

Economic coercion is economic coercion.

And Prostitution is prostitution.

Crackdown on the first two and leave the third one alone.
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TS.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tehanu wrote:
The first appeal step in the prostitution law ruling is starting today in Toronto. TS, are you thinking they'll just bump it?

Quote:
Arguments in a landmark case that could decriminalize Canada's prostitution laws begin Monday in Ontario's Appeal Court in Toronto.

... Alan Young, the lead lawyer working for the sex trade workers, said he is surprised the provincial and federal governments don't understand the danger faced by prostitutes.

Regardless of the outcome of the appeal, Young said this case will eventually make its way to the Supreme Court of Canada.

There are also seven interveners in the case, representing 19 groups, including the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, the Canadian HIV/AIDS Legal Network and the Christian Legal Fellowship.


CBC.

This one is absolutely going all the way to the top. The trial judge basically told the Supreme Court that wrote the previous decision that they can shove that one up their collective ass, so the Supremes will want to deal with it, either to affirm their previous ruling, or to confirm that the previous ruling is overruled.
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sparqui
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prostitution and dope smoking (or some other illicit substance of distraction/contemplation) are going to exist as they have for eons. Decriminalization is the responsible thing to do.

And like anne, I cringe at the term "child prostitute". Children in the sex trade are slaves to those who would abuse them. The morality police would have us believe that if prostitution is decriminalized, somehow more children would flock to the streets to turn tricks. Ludicrous.

And the conservative crowd that are obsessed with controlling how people use their genitals, especially when it comes to the children, are the same arseholes who are for treating youth offenders as adults. Freaking hypocrites.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes I get so confused I can't even think about what it is I want to think about. We're told, often and too often, that with the latest technology Homeland Security can monitor every e-mail sent, can somehow pick up on certain words, terms, references, and from them winnow out enough identifying references to be able to "bust" radical and even terrorist organizations... and then we're also told that child porn is a multi-billion dollar industry, bigger than forestry, fishing, and mining combined, but because it's happening through the internet, nothing can be done to effectively stop it...

My mind grinds to a halt at that point. All I can feel is frustration and a growing disrespect for "authority", for "law", for "justice", for all that supposedly good stuff they seize our taxes to finance... and I look at the sentences handed down to those wretched examples of dung who are convicted of promoting, promulating, distributing images of children who are being abused and it is to make a person vomit. There are times it seems as if a person would get more of a jail term for jaywalking than for a child porn conviction.

We KNOW children and teens have brains which are still in the developmental process. We KNOW there are things they just do not "get" yet. We KNOW so much, and we think we know so much more, but there are those who would hold a kid fully responsible for every action and decision, even though we KNOW they aren't physically capable of ...

y'know?

And the ones who want to give adult sentences to young offenders, and the ones who would just as soon ignore the problem of child porn and child sexual slavery, and genital mutilation and.... are the ones who complain about paying taxes...but they don't seem to mind if those taxes go to buy military helicopters, bigger gunships, and more bombs and bullets...

Crazy, eh?

The police did diddly-squat for years about the number of missing women, and they're still not doing a helluva lot about the ones missing along the Highway of Tears, but now there's discontent with the amount it's costing for Wally Oppal to investigate the behaviour and inaction of the police in the Picton travesty... after all, we have Willy in the lock-up why bother investigating the police and their years of inaction...

On the other hand we all know it doesn't matter what Wally Oppal discovers and reveals, the cops aren't going to improve or change, nor is the judiciary. It seems as if the most that ever happens is that the cop is suspended with pay.... out here we call that a paid vacation....
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The Evil Twin
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sparqui wrote:
And the conservative crowd that are obsessed with controlling how people use their genitals, especially when it comes to the children, are the same arseholes who are for treating youth offenders as adults. Freaking hypocrites.


Very good point Sparqui.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Canadian Supreme Court has struck down prostitution laws, and given the federal government a year to come up with new legislation, if they so choose.

In related news, Conservative heads have been exploding across the country.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clap, Clap Happy Dance Clap, Clap Happy Dance

Double whammy, especially thrilled by the exploding heads Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They'll probably try to disband the supreme court or something equally vindictive.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to see it was unanimous that leaves little ambiguity.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anne cameron wrote:
They'll probably try to disband the supreme court or something equally vindictive.


Nah, they'll privatise the court system, but first they'll reduce the Supreme Court to only one judge to save money.

[ed.] I checked my Concise Oxford Dictionary, c. 1986, for the correct spelling of "privatise," and found that the word apparently didn't exist then.
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voice of the damned
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caissa wrote:
In related news, Conservative heads have been exploding across the country.


[That was Tehanu, not Caissa]

Prediction. The government will either...

Do what Mulroney did in the 80s after the abortion law was struck down, and try to pass another restrictive law, in the hopes that it somehow conforms to the court-decision. Or, somewhat less likely...

Invoke the Notwithstanding Clause. It's drastic, but they could probably get away with it, since neither the Liberals nor the NDP are gonna wanna run in the next election on a pro-legalization platform(even if that's what their policy-books say).

And look for the Conservatives to wrap themselves up in pseudo-feminist rhetoric along the lines of "Is this what we want for our daughters?" And they'll probably stage a few press conferences along the lines of this one.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I expect that Harper will campaign on a law and order platform including new restrictions regarding prostitution. This is exactly the sort of thing that he wants and needs. In order to win back his soft support (that has been eroding of late), he needs to create the legitimate fear that a Trudeau/Mulcair option will lead to a Canada where crime is rampant, pot smoking is common, and hookers roam the streets with impunity. Make no mistake about it, this is a major victory for Harper at the perfect time.
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voice of the damned
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I expect that Harper will campaign on a law and order platform including new restrictions regarding prostitution.


They've already endorsed that in their policy manuals...

Quote:
Just last month, the Conservative party policy convention in Calgary adopted a resolution stating it “shall develop a Canada-specific plan to target the purchasers of sex and human trafficking markets through criminalizing the purchase of sex as well as any third party attempting to profit from the purchase of sex.”



Which sounds like the Nordic Model, tellingly the approach also endorsed by Harper's allies on the religious-right...

Quote:
Don Hutchinson, vice president of the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada, confirmed his group has already made proposals to the government.



Quote:
The evangelical group is looking at what is called the Nordic model, in which the heaviest criminal sanctions are aimed at pimps and johns, not sex workers. The group shares that perspective with Kim Pate of the Elizabeth Fry Society, among others.



So, as I say, look for the Conservatives to flank themselves with Christian ministers and second-wave feminists. If Mulcair or Trudeau raise any objections, they can expect to be caricatured like this by Sun Media.

Quote:
Make no mistake about it, this is a major victory for Harper at the perfect time.


Yes, this issue plays to Harper's strengths, right down the line.

link
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voice of the damned
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And anyone remember the last time prostitution came up in a Canadian election?

Smith weaseled away from her old position PDQ, as I recall. Maybe Canada-wide political culture would allow a bit more breathing room for legalization advocates, but I doubt it.
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anne cameron
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are a nation of hypocritical arstles, really. On the one hand all advertising panders to sex. You can't see a beer ad without seeing some nearly naked woman...and too often that "woman" is really a "girl"... the music vids are selling sex, Miley Cyrus and wotzisname-the-creep do their stupidity in prime time, and the sexualization of toddlers seems to raise few eyebrows. Ah, but... sex is bad, bad, bad and we have to punish the hookers...bad bad hookers, bad bad whores, bad bad...

some of it, I think, is deeply rooted in the long ago battle between the forces of "good", Christianity we are told, and the forces of "evil", the old pagan and goddess worshipping religions. Some religions had "holy whores" who celebrated sensuality, sexuality, and taught girls how to ensure pleasure for themselves as well as their partners. So to get rid of the old religions, the "good" guys killed the holy whores..well, not Mary Magdalen, they converted her...

some of it, I believe, is just out and out bullying. Want to feel big, and powerful, and all things "good"? Get tough with the most vulnerable, that'll show'em.

Most of the children selling their bodies are simply getting paid to do what they were forced to do, for free, at home. Years ago I was researching a drama for CBC "For The Record" series and I spent weeks meeting with kids. I bought them spaghetti suppers at "Fran's" restaurant and I listened. Did not take notes, did not pull out a tape recorder, just listened.

It was torment. I had kids at home the same age as these hungry and too often homeless street kids.

No, they did not "trust" me. They wanted the spaghetti supper. More than a few asked me right out what my motives were, was I some kind of perv, was I going to, eventually, demand sexual favours. Most of them probably did not believe me when I said no, I did not want to use their bodies for my own gratification.

I just listened.

And when I absolutely could not listen to one more story, I stopped. Wrote my script.

But regardeless of party, the feds have chased those kids with all the compassion of a scratch-mutt chasing a kitten. And if the kids survive to adulthood and become adult hookers, the persecution continues.

We ALL use our bodies to feed ourselves. Regardless of the line of work you do, you use your body. And no job is "clean", there's sure to be some degree of corruption in the system somewhere. If we don't stand up for the most vulnerable we help the arse holes persecute them.

Get rid of the pimps. Why drop a load of bricks on the "john"? Some guy wants to buy a brief interlude of human contact... sorry, I'm not going to get bent out of shape about that... guys who work "in camp" for months on end have little chance to "socialize". They come out of camp and want some human contact, some sex, and they're willing to pay for it. No reason to come down on them as if they were doing something vile! Pimps, however, are ticks, nits, lice, leeches, and are all too often brutal. Get rid of them.

The huge sums spent on persecuting the sex trade workers could be put into health clinics to ensure nobody catches or passes on a disease.

Jeebus, we might even be able to afford to do something constructive and healing for the eleven year old who is being fucked in an abandoned car. The kid is there to get enough money to buy food from MacDonalds, he or she isn't planning a terrorist attack on Bay Street.

They're hungry. They're cold. The fact they have chosen life on the street tells you everything you need to know about what life was like for them at "home".

It aint' rocket science.
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Bacchus
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish we had a 'like' button

WTG Anne
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Tehanu
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bacchus wrote:
I wish we had a 'like' button

We do -- check the bottom of each post when you're logged in. It's kinda in the middle, on the right end of a row.

And absolutely concur about Anne's post. Bravo.
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cco
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Mainstream feminism might remember that the war on women always starts with the war on whores. Then, that category expands to include everyone but the white virgin tying her knees together in church. Until 1996, Ireland locked up unmarried moms and rape victims in Magdalene Laundries, where nuns worked them to death to cleanse their imaginary sins. The nuns built those Magdalene Laundries to imprison sex workers. Tens of thousands of women died within their walls, of every walk of life except the very wealthiest.
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