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Cheerleading, Pictures, and Control
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F.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Do the militaristic origins of your preferred sport bother you in any way?


Didn't the use of the militaristic phrase "martial arts" begin its life on this planet as a description of European activities like fencing, and was only later applied to the various Asian fighting styles? And anyway, wouldn't the simpler and less historically problematic phrase "systematic fighting" be a more accurate description of the various forms of wrestling and sparring?
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voice of the damned
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Didn't the use of the militaristic phrase "martial arts" begin its life on this planet as a description of European activities like fencing, and was only later applied to the various Asian fighting styles?


Quite possibly. But the term certainly had been embraced by the practitioners of Karate, Kung Fu etc, and even they seem to restrict the usage to the the Asian styles. I don't think I've ever heard European fencing, for example, described as a martial art by anyone.
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bshmr
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last two had a scent suggesting wikipedia about them, no offense meant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_arts
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Timebandit
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vod, did not see the link or quote when I replied to you upthread.

"Martial arts" is kind of like "sports that use a ball". There are so, so many different styles and disciplines.

Tae kwon do does have military origins in Korea, IIRC. Basically, martial arts techniques were taken from a variety of places and formed into a discipline that was taught to Korean military personnel, then became a sport.

Interesting note: Tae kwon do is a recognized olympic sport, whereas wushu, which is more dance-like and acrobatic, is not - even though there was a big push to include it before the Beijing olympic games.
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Willow
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Timebandit. Are your kids enrolled in Tae Kwon do? The reason I am asking is because I have a daughter - 1 years old, but I have been thinking that I would like to enroll her in some kind of martial arts when she is older. I want her to have confidence, be able to defend herself, and take pride in herself. I don't want her to be taught aggressive behavior though. I am sure it does depend on the instructor, but do you know if there is a difference in approach with say Karate, tae kwon do, or kung fu? I know of one school where the kids seemed to get a really big head and became problem bullies. I just want to know what to watch out for.
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mamitalinda
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could always try capoeira, Willow. Very Happy
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Rufus Polson
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

voice of the damned wrote:
Quote:
Doesn't "martial" technically mean "warlike"? Any tribe will tell you you don't need a military to fight a war.

And, even allowing a difference between "military" and "warlike", an emphasis on the distinction reminds me a little of this conversation I had with an evangelical Christian friend once. I had misquoted the lyrics of Onward Christian Soldiers as "marching off to war", and he corrected me, saying the words were in fact "as to war", and said that it would be quite horrible if the lyrics were what I thought they were, since that would be advocating war. Suffice to see, methinks the lady etc.


That's because it appears you didn't read my response closely enough to get the point. I object to militaries not because they relate to violence, but because they are examples of rigid hierarchy, indoctrination/brainwashing etc. and because they tend to perpetrate massive injustices.

So, if martial arts were related to the military that would bother me. Indeed, I am quite unlikely to take one of the modern martial arts which are military combat systems, like that Israeli one. But in general, martial arts *do* relate to violence, but *do not* relate to the military, to injustice, indoctrination and so on. They do tend to have hierarchy, but on average not really any more than any other teaching-related system.

Your original question strikes me as involving a confusion. The main thrust involved whether people had a problem with the violence inherent in martial arts. I agree that martial arts are inherently related to violence, and I don't have a problem with that. You mixed that up with an invocation of the military. That I would have a problem with, but it's not generally relevant.

Here's the thing. People have inherent violent tendencies. One of the things we're built for is fighting, 'cause we evolved in a dangerous world. For me that has a couple of implications. One is that being able to do fight-y stuff without consequences is fun! So yes, I enjoy martial arts precisely because of the combative elements. Sue me. Another implication is that it's good to have some understanding of and be in control of that aspect of your personality. I won't say all dojos promote control over your aggressive instincts--I'm sure there are some crappy places that make martial arts an excuse for being a prick--but most do. Most are quite serious about keeping calm, not using martial arts for aggression, and so on. There is some truth to the martial arts people truism that when you know how to fight and have the confidence that brings, you won't actually need to fight. And when I say "need" I mean both as in not being seen as a victim and so not being pushed that far, and not psychologically needing to respond as aggressively.

Incidentally, relating to a post lower down--sure, European fencing is a martial art IMO, and it's certainly based on violence--it's all about killing people with swords, and it's fun although too stylized. There's a place in Vancouver where they do Renaissance-style fencing, more like the kind of thing Italian street punks would really have done, and that sounds very cool to me.
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Rufus Polson
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willow wrote:
Hi Timebandit. Are your kids enrolled in Tae Kwon do? The reason I am asking is because I have a daughter - 1 years old, but I have been thinking that I would like to enroll her in some kind of martial arts when she is older. I want her to have confidence, be able to defend herself, and take pride in herself. I don't want her to be taught aggressive behavior though. I am sure it does depend on the instructor, but do you know if there is a difference in approach with say Karate, tae kwon do, or kung fu? I know of one school where the kids seemed to get a really big head and became problem bullies. I just want to know what to watch out for.


OK, there's probably some personal prejudice here, and perhaps a Tae Kwon do aficionado will bite my head off. But among all the martial arts out there, I've always had a certain dislike for Tae Kwon do. Its emphasis on flashy high kicks annoys me. I don't think it's that practical for self defence because of that same emphasis. And any time you see a superficial "belt factory" dojo, it seems half the time it's Tae Kwon do. Doubtless there are good dojos around for that, and people can get a lot out of it. But . . . not my thing.
For a daughter . . . when I was a kid, I took some karate. And I got a lot out of it. But some years later I had a rude awakening when a big beefy guy attacked me on the street and responded to my kicking him by rushing in and grabbing me. Karate, like Tae Kwon do, is oriented very strongly towards blows. I had no idea what to do.
When I went back to martial arts, and when I was looking for something for my daughter, I made sure to pick something with a mixed outlook, that had both punches and grappling techniques. Specifically, we ended up with a Jiu Jitsu coming out of the Japanese tradition, with a self-defence orientation. I've been very pleased with the results.
For a daughter, if self defence is one of the reasons for a martial art, IMO the art really should include grappling and hold-escape sort of stuff, because very often an attacker will be trying to grab, not trying to hit. That still leaves the field pretty wide open.
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Timebandit
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Willow - I agree with Rufus, but will add a bit more.

The different martial arts have different character to them. You have to remember that, for example, Thailand (Muy Thai) and Japan (karate, judo) are different places with different cultures. They're both in Asia, and we westerners have a bad habit of homogenizing Asia. The same thing happens with "martial arts". BTW, fencing clubs and boxing clubs are both martial arts organizations, as is grav magna, the Israeli hand combat system (and wicked nasty, that is!).

Personal bias - I don't like Tae Kwon Do. I have a friend who is a black belt and has competed internationally, and I looked at his club when I was looking into martial arts for my oldest daughter. Too much emphasis on strike, on contact sparring even for little kids. It's much more focused on the martial, not so much on the art and I'm not that impressed with the philosophical component. I also checked out a karate club and the tradition Chinese kung fu school that we've now been going to for the last 7 years.

More personal bias - I really love Kung Fu. I love the wide variety of styles, particularly the flowing forms and my favourite weapon style is Northern Chinese broadsword. I love the precision and grace of it. I like the fact that there are styles that were, as legend would have it, originated by women and that suit the physicality of the female body. It seems to me to be more gender-equal than some other disciplines becaue, although it is still male-dominated, there is a history and tradition of female kung fu masters. Traditional schools are also set up as a family structure - and the "Simo" or "mother-teacher" plays a central role in that structure.

It also works for me because we found a really good school. Not all schools of any MA discipline are equal, just as some dance studios are better than others. I found a place that had good credentials for training, were willing to answer my questions, were open and friendly and really good with the kids. There isn't much rigid, militaristic drilling - they make a game of it. There's lots of joking and laughing and no tearing down or harsh criticism. I've seen Sifu quietly and gently ask an obstreperous student to sit on the sidelines for a few minutes, that's it. They also teach Tai Chi and Chi Kung, so there's a health and wellness component to all their training.

It's also a school that isn't, as Rufus put it, a "belt-factory". There are a wide variety of students of different ages who are looking for different things. I've seen younger people start after me and pass my level, but they're looking for something I'm not. I'm in no rush, I enjoy the stress relief and fitness, have nothing to prove and don't care to compete much. Another student will have different priorities, and that's respected. Me, I'm happy that I'm healthy, in good shape and can shut the cupboard door above my sink with my foot. Very Happy

There's also a balance in the different areas - so we will get the formalized forms, demonstation stuff, but also practical self-defense and some sparring, although if you're not into it you can opt out of the more advanced levels. I don't like hand sparring, but short weapons sparring (padded stick instead of sword) is something I quite enjoy. It's probably a size thing - I'm not very big. Although we just started some "sticking hands" technique that I really like - related to Wing Chun style, very suited to small people and close spaces. The women are better at it than the big guys.

So, anyway, after all the ramble, I'd recommend kung fu but it really depends on the school. Karate's pretty good, too - it has some grounding in Zen Buddhist philosophy (Kung Fu relates to Ch'an Buddhism, the precursor of Zen).

Rufus, in your karate training, did they teach practical self-defense? We've been taught not to try to use the flashy kicks - keep them at knee level, use elbows - and don't worry about beating the other guy up, just cause enough hurt to get away. Hold -breaking techniques, too.
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Rufus Polson
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not much. A little bit every now and then, but mostly it stuck to the kicks, punches, occasionally sweeps and whatnot. Lots of exercise, harsh stretches, knuckle pushups on the wood floor, that kind of thing. Quite a bit of sparring, more non-contact than otherwise. This was a long time ago, like thirty years.

The Jiu Jitsu (Can-Ryu) is much less old school--no wood floors, for sure. One feature of it as an art is that, particularly in the early stages, it emphasizes hold escapes, and when I say "escape" I really mean "Make the person hurt very badly for having been stupid enough to lay hands on you." At the end of any given sequence your attacker should be lying on the ground in pain with you kneeling on top applying a joint lock or something. Gave me a lot of confidence for if anyone ever tried to drag my Galadriel off or something. The basic sequence tends to be "Hit the person somewhere vulnerable a couple of times, use their momentary blanking out to get in a throw or a lock or a takedown, then if they're still being a problem use their vulnerable position to hit them some more until they are less of a problem." Blow, throw, blow. Vulnerable places are things like feet (stomp on), solar plexus, ears (clap), groin, and so forth. The point isn't so much damage as distraction, that momentary "Aaagh!" where they won't register what you do next. Solar plexus is great if you're grabbed from behind, because if you step to the side just a titch your elbow is naturally right there. I have long hair. I used to worry about what I would do in a fight if someone grabbed my hair. Now my sentiment would be "Oh boy! He gave me his hand!"

There is also punch and kick stuff, tending to more low and in-close than not--elbows, knees, little six-inch shin kicks, along with more normal stuff. And also some work on more free-form groundfighting like the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu types emphasize. I will concede that while it's interesting to watch a sequence of moves, Can-Ryu Jiu Jitsu is not the most beautiful art. If aesthetics is an important part of your criteria, it probably wouldn't be your schtick. One thing I found interesting is that although he teaches a rather down-and-dirty, practical discipline, sensei has a good deal of respect for Tai Chi, which he has also done.
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Timebandit
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. Thanks for the info.
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Rufus Polson
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No worries. Your dojo sounds pretty cool, by the way.
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Chester
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wholly Crap! you go away for a few days and a 2 year old thread about cheering gets testy and then morphs into a discussion of martial arts...focus people, focus!

Raos, if you like it buddy and see lots of benefit for you and other participants that's cool with me. If i'm not mistaken there are two approaches to CFL cheering. Some teams seem to have all women who cheer and pom pom and some (the riders, i believe) have mixed-gender squads that do lifts and throws...holy crap they can really launch somebody (or is that some body?).

Like most things it kinda depends on where you are looking at it from. for instance, both my daughters were in dance when they were kids...I fucking hated it! i thought it was the most sexist activity ever. In my experience it was almost completely girls and all little princesses and fairies and then all little leotards and but shaking by the time they were 10...couldn't fucking wait until they grew tired of it. other people seem to think it's fabulous.


Willow: both my daughters were in karate from the ages of 8-13 or so. It was real good experience all around. our choice of style/dojo wasn't really the product of much research, the YMCA hosts a small voluteer-run dojo of wadokia (?) karate, we signed up, it was good for about 8 years in total. the dojo was led by voluteers, it was cheap, people earned their belts and belts weren't the focus, i liked it. a few things that we appreciated about our experience:

mixed gender

mixed age

non-gendered uniforms, everyone wears "angry white pyjamas" Smile

a focus on respect and discipline

physical activity

although i can't say the style had a self defense basis, i believe that they learned some skills that would help in that regard

a little bit of competition mostly pushing your self and testing your skills in a few competitions, competitions that were more about participation than winning

I have to say that, in our case, the thing i like best about it was doing a physical activity in a mixed age, mixed gender environment. at every belt level there were male/female, kids/adults...it was fun. eventually they both decided they didn't want to continue and that was fine with me. I think it was worthwhile.
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Tehanu
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the mixed-gender, everyone wears the same clothing type of approach. Sounds about right to me.

So ... seems not everyone's all cheery about the Edmonton Oilers announcing they're adding a cheerleading squad -- yes, all-female and I'm guessing the uniforms will not exactly be "angry white pyjamas"!

Quote:
... Since an online petition was launched on Friday, 525 people have signed on a response that has surprised the woman behind the site.

Lisa Monro says she felt compelled to act because she believes Canadian teams have no problem with ticket sales, meaning the enticement of a cheer team is not needed.

She also thinks the idea is insulting to women.

"Over 50 per cent of the people on our petition are men, commenting on how they feel it's a national embarrassment that Canadian NHL hockey teams don't have to have any cheerleaders and that we're going to be the first team to do that and it's going to be the laughing stock of the whole country," she said.
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Chester
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tehanu wrote:
I like the mixed-gender, everyone wears the same clothing type of approach. Sounds about right to me.

So ... seems not everyone's all cheery about the Edmonton Oilers announcing they're adding a cheerleading squad -- yes, all-female and I'm guessing the uniforms will not exactly be "angry white pyjamas"!

Quote:
... Since an online petition was launched on Friday, 525 people have signed on a response that has surprised the woman behind the site.

Lisa Monro says she felt compelled to act because she believes Canadian teams have no problem with ticket sales, meaning the enticement of a cheer team is not needed.

She also thinks the idea is insulting to women.

"Over 50 per cent of the people on our petition are men, commenting on how they feel it's a national embarrassment that Canadian NHL hockey teams don't have to have any cheerleaders and that we're going to be the first team to do that and it's going to be the laughing stock of the whole country," she said.


some of the american teams have women doing the "picking up hats and sweeping debri" routine. lululemon is the uniform, of course.
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Raos
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure I follow the logic.
Quote:
Lisa Monro says she felt compelled to act because she believes Canadian teams have no problem with ticket sales, meaning the enticement of a cheer team is not needed.

So it'd be fine if ticket sales were flagging? Isn't that kind of more degrading, suggesting their only value is the money from ogglers that they might attract?

And for the record, I know the coach and she's quite pointedly gearing for not a skin show.
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TS.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went to a game at Rexall Place a number of years ago, and I could have sworn there were cheerleader-types there. I have an Oilers t-shirt that I caught from a t-shirt cannon that they were operating.
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Rufus Polson
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raos wrote:
I'm not sure I follow the logic.
Quote:
Lisa Monro says she felt compelled to act because she believes Canadian teams have no problem with ticket sales, meaning the enticement of a cheer team is not needed.

So it'd be fine if ticket sales were flagging? Isn't that kind of more degrading, suggesting their only value is the money from ogglers that they might attract?


It's a capitalist business, specifically a form of show business. Within that frame, what other kind of value does anyone involved have?
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Raos
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the point where 'if the bodies are in the seats without you, there's no value in having/keeping you'?
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Rufus Polson
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heck, that would be true of the hockey players if they could come up with a way.
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Raos
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And yet they spend millions on high profile players while there's nothing wrong with ticket sales so evidently it's not quite the same situation.
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Searosia
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Lisa Monro says she felt compelled to act because she believes Canadian teams have no problem with ticket sales, meaning the enticement of a cheer team is not needed.


I don't follow it either Raos...figure if the CFL got rid of their cheerleaders, people would stop going to CFL games?
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Rufus Polson
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raos wrote:
And yet they spend millions on high profile players while there's nothing wrong with ticket sales so evidently it's not quite the same situation.


Oh, come on. The general assumption by managers, accurate or not, would be that if you don't get serious players you will start losing, and if you lose enough (especially if you're seen as not even trying to win by hiring good players) sooner or later you will have problems with ticket sales.
I'm sure you could save a lot of money by hiring a bunch of guys off the street for $10/hour to play hockey, but that would not be a viable NHL team. You would stop making money.
As to the CFL . . . if managers for CFL teams felt really sure that removing that ingredient would have no impact on their ticket sales or advertising revenues or other merchandising, they'd say bye bye to the cheerleaders in a heartbeat. As things stand, they're already there, they're part of the whole entertainment package, and so presumably there's a niggling suspicion that getting rid of them would "weaken the brand" in some way.

Look, I'm just saying--sure, it's a degrading perspective, but that's capitalism. Capitalism is degrading, it treats the working class (no matter how much bargaining leverage a particular segment has) as having worth purely as a function of how much money they can make for capitalists. Cheerleaders for professional sports teams are no different; why would they be? I really don't understand why you find this comment controversial.
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Willow
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rufus and Timebandit - thank you for your thoughtful input into my question regarding martial arts. I know I know, it was a dogs age ago. As far as I know, we do not have Jui Jitsu here. I took Kung Fu for a short time when I was young and I really liked it. Unfortunately I do not think we have it here either. There is a Karate school though that I am going to check into further.

mamatlinda - I am quite sure we do not have Capoeira here, but it does sound intriguing.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My pleasure!
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Timebandit
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are very welcome, Willow! I hope you find a good school!

BTW, both my nephews in Montreal take karate and have enjoyed it immensely.
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voice of the damned
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The latest development is a new app that the NFL has approved, and it will allow fans to be closer than ever to the action on the field ... as well as the cheerleaders. Daniel Kaplan of Sports Business Daily reports that the NFL has launched a partnership with the app developer Experience. The collaboration will allow fans to upgrade their seats, score pre- and post-game on-field experiences and even, if they so desire, order cheerleaders to their seats.



I have nothing against ribald entertainment for men(or any women who may be interested), but if the NFL is gonna go so whole-hog with this sorta thing, they might as well just make it official and merge with Lingerie Football League. (Possibly NSFW)

link
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voice of the damned
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And now going from the superstructure to the base for a second...

The Shockingly Low Salaries Of Professional Cheerleaders
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