EnMasse

[lonewolf]

Looks like society has given up the War on Poverty, War on Child Poverty and decided it is easier to make war on the homeless.

Witness this:

[TS.]

It is disgusting, especially when it gets played up by CBC et al as a public cleanliness measure. As if it were just to make the city look nice by keeping sidewalks clean, rather than making the city look nice by chasing homeless people off of the streets.
_________________
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

[Sineed]

These bylaws might backfire on them when they discover that most of the people fighting, spitting and peeing in public are not homeless.

[Senor Magoo]

[TS.]

I think the proof that the laws are targeted at the homeless comes from the fact that there is a punishment for putting one's feet up on a public bench, and that the fine for that is larger than fighting in public. Take a wild guess at which one does more damage to public order.
_________________
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

[Red T shirt]

I don't have too much difficulty with the ban on urinating in public. Even the homeless have access to public washrooms, though I would preface this by saying that there must be an adequate supply of public washrooms. Homeless people are also consumers in coffe shops etc. where they can use the restrooms.
I do however, have a real problem with the feet up on a public bench idea. I can't see that this is not directed at the homeless. There is no real issue of sanitation and no danger of indecent public exposure with this, so what's the problem?

[Senor Magoo]

Sounds like you can still take a whiz in public, as long as you're not an asshole about it:

[shavluk]

i think we should jail them all instantly ,,,the jail would consist of their own apartment with paid rent and equipped with phones,, Internet,,resume services and compulsory job training ,,we the taxpayers pay their salary to go to food banks and work or go visit the elderly or shovel their snow etc

some are homeless because of the poor medical system(mental health over crowed) or drug addiction( real drugs,,alcohol , coke , meth , heroine)
some will not remove themselves from their addictions long enough to develop a life and those can be warehoused for all i care
i believe in legal euthanasia

we take the money that would have been spent on police and judges and pay for all of it
we take the 9 tenths saving from regular jail and solve other problems like paying for autistic children's education which most governments are trying to get out of,,or we make sure the kids in school now have eaten

the money spent to jail them normally is 10 times higher than this would cost,,it is believe it or not

we live in what should be the richest country in the world
we allow our politicians to give our country away instead of doing what they were elected to do
my 2 cents

[TS.]

[fork]

[DTA]

Maybe if Calgary built affordable housing and more housing in general as many homeless are people with jobs, but there is no where to rent, there would not be this problem.

But that is the conservative way, to beat up on the poor and less fortunate people.

Klein did that for years,as did Harris, Campbell did it here when he first came in and Harper does the same.

[Senor Magoo]

[TS.]

Magoo, you still haven't addressed the issue of feet up on public benches being subject to a bigger fine than peeing in public. Can you think of a good reason for this other than targetting the homeless?
_________________
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

[Hephaestion]

[Senor Magoo]

[NWOntarian]

Isn't public urination and such covered under the Criminal Code in some way, anyways? I mean, if I'm in a high-traffic area and whip out my tally-whacker, I'd get busted for public indecency or mischief, whatever the reason I did it.

There was a story in the news a little while back about some people taking a piss on a war memorial or some such monument in Ottawa, and they were going to be charged with vandalism or public mischief, or some such thing, for doing that. Are the separate laws necessary?

[Rufus Polson]

Can never have too many laws, doncha know. If you didn't have a bunch of duplicating and overlapping laws for every circumstance, how could you pick up the people you want to grab but who haven't obviously done anything in particular?

[al-Qa'bong]

In Europe they have public edifices - simple structures, really - called "pissoires" that help to relieve the problem.
_________________
"The purpose of government is to protect the weak from the powerful" Hammurabi

"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl

[lagatta]

al-Q, most of the old pissoirs (Vespasiens) have been removed, at least in Paris. In their place there are now sanisettes - automated, self-cleaning structures. Problem was, they required some change - not a big amount for an employed person, a student or a tourist, but a lot for the most destitute. And even for the not-so-destitute, one had to have an odd combination of coins after the switch over to Euros.

Fortunately the Socialist mayor of Paris, Delanoé, is making the sanisettes free of charge.

Speaking as someone who is not homeless, nor inclined to drink in the streets, I have sometimes had a hard time finding or accessing a public convenience. Some restaurants and cafés refuse to allow any non-customer to use the toilet. And the last thing I want when I have to go is a coffee or something, and I don't eat the food available in a lot of places.

[al-Qa'bong]

They still have them in Nantes, in the Jardin des Plantes and near the Gare SNCF. Unfortunately, if you're nowhere close to these places you have to exercise those bladder muscles, as, like you say, public facilities are rare in stores, etc.
_________________
"The purpose of government is to protect the weak from the powerful" Hammurabi

"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl

[qualm faubourg]

The poobahs on Victoria city council felt it was time to install pop-up urinals downtown. Haven't seen one yet so I can't testify to their efficacy, but lately downtown one notices that telltale pang of piss-shellac.

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=f559...

[lagatta]

Alas, I've never been to Nantes (though that part of France is the homeland for many people here). In Paris and in Lyon I memorised the locations of public conveniences where you didn't have to spend a franc to spend a penny. Casino cafeteria was good, idem les grands magasins (Marks and Spencers had a particularly lovely loo; alas they've closed their continental European stores). Public libraries and museums can also be handy.

I've had the problem men don't think of, extremely heavy periods. Very, very problematic.

[Senor Magoo]

[lonewolf]

ALL of these petty bylaws are targetted against the homeless....

[Diane Demorney]

Behaviour bylaw passes

[lonewolf]

And quite coincidentally this story from redneck central...

[Chester]

apropo of the community development/housing response to homelessness part of this thread, this article in the Tyee http://thetyee.ca/News/2006/11/21/Housing/ references a study that estimated the cost of dealing with homelessness through the health/corrections system compared to providing social housing....double. the link to the study doesn't bring up the report but the URL fragment[/url]www.urbancentre.utoronto.ca[url] suggests where it can be found. i'll look later unless all you smart people want to look now.[/url]

[Rufus Polson]

Not that the right care. The point of the homeless is to create fear--keep your head down and your nose clean at work, don't agitate for better wages or conditions, or IT COULD HAPPEN TO YOU. If there's one thing Harperites don't want, it's less homelessness.

[Senor Magoo]

[lonewolf]

[HeywoodFloyd]

[lonewolf]

Hey Heywood, I just quoted what was in the article.... the part besides police officers that applies could be...

[Diane Demorney]

Actually, the police will not be enforcing the "Bad Behaviour" laws. That is left to the bylaw officers. Of which there are very few. You know, the people that enforce such things as barking dogs, parking violations and the like.
_________________
Scissors cuts paper. Paper covers rock. Rock crushes lizard. Lizard poisons Spock. Spock smashes scissors. Scissors decapitates lizard. Lizard eats paper. Paper disproves Spock. Spock vaporizes rock. And as it always has, rock crushes scissors.

[Red T shirt]

Absolutely stupid by-laws and council should be thouroughly ashamed of themselves for passing them, especially in light of the fact that there was some last minute concern expressed. Why not slow down, take a second look, think about whether or not there could be some unforseen problems with this or the possiblity of misuse/abause?

The feet up on a public bench is the dead giveaway on this one.

Scenario 1: Businessman in a nice suit stretches out for a moment on a bench to look at the clouds & enjoy the sunshine and beauty of a BC day. By-law officer either ignores this, or at most apologizes for interupting and informs said upstanding citizen that technically this is not permitted. Businessman goes back to his work of defrauding old ladies on fixed incomes. Society is safe.
Scenario 2: Dishevelled homeless person sleeping on a park bench beneath the protection of a newspaper (for warmth) he found in the trash. He sleeps here because he feels it's safer than some of the shelters where he has been robbed or gotten into fights before. By-law officers wakes him and tells him he has to "move along" under the threat of $100 citiation. Sleepy homeless person tells by-law officer to "fuck off and leave me alone". Struggle ensues, police are called, homeless person beaten/subdued and thrown in jail for public intoxication, resisting arrest, creating a public disturbance etc., etc., and fined $100 for having there feet up on a public bench. Society is safer?

Way to go BC, we need more stupid by-laws like these, NOT !

[Senor Magoo]

If all that's left to criticize is the possibility that these, like any laws could be differentially applied, then I'd say that this is far, far from being some kind of "war on the homeless".

Thinking about it, it seemed to me that of the activities that fall under the umbrella of these laws, only elimination is a necessity, and as noted, even people who simply must urinate in public are still off the hook, unless they choose to do it in the middle of the sidewalk. Beyond that, criminalizing fighting in public is a war on the homeless? A fine for carrying around a visible knife is somehow unfair to the homeless? Hardly.
_________________
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,

[Abdul_Maria]

[Red T shirt]

Magoo, who is it that needs a park bench to spend the night on to avoid laying on cold damp ground? My fictional businessman in scenario 1 above would be a rare occurence and putting his feet up would in no way be necessary. That was kind of the point of the scenario.

If you can't see that a by-law preventing anyone from putting their feet up on a public bench is in fact a thinly veiled tool for hassling the homeless, well maybe you're not quite as bright as I've been lead to believe by some of your other posts.

[lonewolf]

Proof the Alberta based federal Tories have it in for the homeless...

[DTA]

It is "Fashionable" to pick on the less fortunate people of society, especially by right wing governments like Campbell, Harper, Klein and Harris all did.

They cut and eliminate programmes to help these people out and when they end up homeless they get kicked in the teeth and that is what the conservative Calgary City Council is doing.

They make empty promises about helping them out like social housing but that social housing never seems to come. Now that incompetent PM despite glowing reports would not commit funding to the Insite programme in Vancouver.

Governments need to do more, build more social housing, create more spaces in colleges etc so people on assistance and low income can go to school to learn some skills or get a trade or be an accountant.

A responsible government would ensure we had the resources and programmes to help people out, yet Harper just cuts taxes, unless you are in the lowest tax bracket, then it went up. So the much needed Social Programmes will be cut and eliminated further just for an election ploy and to screw the next government who will have to raise taxes to get us out of running a deficit and to increase social spending that the cruel conservatives will cut and eliminate.

Raising the minimum wage, give students free bus passes, make trade school, universities and other post secondary free to all and increase welfare rates by at least 75%.

I bet a case could be made for crimes against humanity charges for these human decency acts these politicians do.

We really need an NDP Government in Ottawa now more than ever, I wish people would realize it is the same old with the Libs and Cons and give the NDP a chance to straighten us out.

[Diane Demorney]

Some good news, for a change...
Brick shelter gets green light

[Rufus Polson]

I'm reminded of an old "Wizard of Id" comic:

Troubadour: "So, your highness, how goes the war on poverty?"
King Id: "I'm winning!"
Troubadour: "Then how do you explain all those beggars on the streets?"
King Id: "They're losing."


For the king, substitute the whole set of right wing politicians. And most centrist politicians. And a fair number of self-proclaimed leftist politicians . . .

[Diane Demorney]

Homeless man fined $115 for spitting

[TS.]

That is, frankly, bullshit. He was spitting in a garbage can! He wasn't doing any harm.
_________________
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

[Tehanu]

There's a lot of work being done to raise awareness of the federal cuts to the Supporting Community Partnership Initiatives program. For EMers in Toronto, I got this today:

[DSquared]

Burnaby teens charged in attack on homeless person:

[DSquared]

Any news on the disabled man found murdered on a Vancouver school ground?

[DSquared]

Criminal charges against Toronto security guards unlikely: police