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Tehanu
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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 Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:24 pm Post subject: God and politics |
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Seem to mix a little too often for my comfort. Particularly in the USA. Great article at AlterNet about how Republican and also, increasingly, Democratic candidates are embracing questions about faith and belief and religion. So much for the separation of church and state. There has been plenty of discussion in American politics about the "firsts" in terms of potential presidents; I wonder if an atheist or an agnostic could ever run for president and win.
| Quote: | Inquisition 2008: Candidates Get Grilled by the Media's Holy Standards
... Many Americans might be surprised that such questions [about sins, faith, etc.] are being asked at all, given the pressing international and domestic issues vying for the candidates' attention. With a war in Iraq raging, health care in crisis and energy costs spiraling, lots of voters are interested in hearing the candidates' specific policy positions on key issues, not bromides on how often a candidate prays and what he or she prays for.
Yet many candidates remain convinced that millions of voters are fixated on religion -- and the media apparently agrees. Although the general election is more than a year off, the topic of faith has been unusually prominent so far. Indications are that will continue.
... Why is religion so prominent in the race so soon? Several factors are at work. Among them is what may be a sea change in the way the Democratic Party deals with religion. Democrats are being advised by moderate evangelicals like Jim Wallis to talk more openly about faith and God. (A Wallis group, Call to Renewal, sponsored the June debate on CNN. A similar event is planned for the top GOP candidates.) In the 2006 elections, some Democrats won seats after raising religious themes. Some advisors want the party to exploit this trend.
... Oval Office aspirants like Clinton, Obama, Edwards and others are taking the advice to boost talk about religion as well. As the newsweekly noted, "Clinton has hired Burns Strider, a congressional staffer (and evangelical Baptist from Mississippi) who is assembling a faith steering group from major denominations and sends out a weekly wrap-up, Faith, Family and Values. Edwards has been organizing conference calls with progressive religious leaders and is about to embark on a 12-city poverty tour. In the past month alone, Obama's campaign has run six faith forums in New Hampshire, where local clergy and laypeople discuss religious engagement in politics."
... But there are dangers to such an approach as well. At least a third of the Democratic Party base is composed of voters who attend church rarely, if ever. Many of these secularists are wary of the new emphasis on God talk and are concerned that the party might be moving away from its stand in favor of church-state separation.
... Polls show most Americans are wary of basing policy explicitly on a politician's interpretation of the Bible. A poll released by Time magazine in July asked, "Do you think that a president should or should not use his or her personal interpretation of the Bible to make decisions as president?" A solid majority of 62.2 percent said no. Less than half that number, 28.7 percent, said yes.
... [From the Republican side] there's a risk in all of this. A recent poll of Republican voters, conducted for the Republican Main Street Partnership and three other moderate GOP organizations by Fabrizio, McLaughlin and Associates, found 53 percent saying the party "has spent too much time focusing on moral issues such as abortion and gay marriage and should instead be spending time focusing on economic issues such as taxes and government spending." Seventy-two percent said the government should not interfere with legal abortion, and nearly 80 percent backed employment protections for gay people. |
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ShyViolet
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Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 675
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| I wouldn't count on an atheist or agnostic running for president and winning, at least, not here in the US. It seems to me that there is a bias against those who don't attend church (but you probably gathered that from the article you posted) and I think it goes deep enough that it would make it extremely hard for a non-religious person to get nominated, let alone elected. Certainly, they would not have a chance in the historically red states, and I'd think that they'd be hurt in the swing states too. They still might be able to take the historically blue states though. |
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Reverend Blair
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Just think about Obama. He was an atheist, then he wasn't because he wanted to run for office.
If Washington, Jefferson, and so many of the other founding fathers had to deal with this, they'd likely never get elected. Can you imagine Jefferson tryin to explain deism on Larry King?
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unionist
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Joined: 22 Apr 2006
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Location: Montréal
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Reverend Blair wrote: | | Just think about Obama. He was an atheist, then he wasn't ... |
He found God? Do you know where? I misplaced mine years ago. |
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Reverend Blair
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think he found god so much as kind of mentioning that he might have talked to somebody who might have seen god wander by. That's not likely to be enough...you don't hear so much about Obama anymore, except as the bottom of Hillary's ticket. I suspect his lack of worshipping might have a bt to do with that.
Still, he tried to compromise.
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Maestro
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Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:50 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps they could bring up the person who was probably the single person most responsible for the United States existing, wrote a good part of the US constitution, and in fact was the person who named the United States of America - Thomas Paine.
| Quote: | Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is none more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself, than this thing called Christianity.
Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid, or produces only atheists and fanatics.
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All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
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Hephaestion
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Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:56 am Post subject: |
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POLL: Keep Religion Out Of Politics
| Quote: | Welcome news.
| Quote: | For the first time in a dozen years, a majority of Americans believe that churches and religious institutions should “keep out” of politics, according to the annual Pew Religion and Public Life Survey.
It’s the highest level of public concern with faith’s effect on politics since Pew began asking the question in 1996. The rise in Americans’ desire to separate religion and politics — from 44 percent in 2004 to 52 percent today — appears due to a surprising increase in conservative distaste for mingling the institutions — from 30 percent in 2004 to half of conservatives expressing the view today.
Among white evangelicals, 36 percent want religious groups to stay out of politics, a dramatic rise from 16 percent four years ago. The findings come in the wake of the Saddleback Civil Forum on Saturday, when, in unprecedented fashion, both presidential candidates — Republican John McCain and Democrat Barack Obama — joined popular evangelical leader Rick Warren at his megachurch for their first back-to-back campaign appearance.
But the study, the most authoritative national survey of politics and religion, was conducted prior to event, July 31 to Aug. 10. Conducted on mobile and land line phones, the survey had a large national sample of 2,905 adults, with an overall margin of error of plus or minus 2 percentage points.
In the survey, released Thursday, about half of Americans who view gay marriage and abortion as “very important” voting issues say churches should not be involved in politics. In 2004, only one in four voters who saw gay marriage as a top issue said the same, while a third of those who saw abortion as a top issue agreed.
Overall, 48 percent of Americans believe that social conservatives wield “too much” influence in the GOP. Yet older adults appeared most irked by the mingling of religion and politics. Only 18 percent of Americans age 65 and older said churches should endorse candidates, while roughly a third of voters under age 50 believed a church support for a candidate was appropriate. |
And yet we will never cease to hear about a candidate's "personal relationship" with the invisible sky monster. Sort Of Related Trivia: The highest office held in America by an avowed atheist is Rep. Pete Stark (D-CA). |
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
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Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:12 am Post subject: |
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Fundies Lose Faith-Based Funding for Proselytizing
| Quote: | A fundamentalist Christian group out of Kentucky, Teen Challenge, who claimed to help teens battle substance abuse through religious study and prayer has voluntarily given up a federal grant after a protest from Americans United for Separation of Church and State.
Americans United is a non profit organization, that is dedicated to defending the separation of church and state and protecting religious liberty in America.
| Quote: | | Teen Challenge, Americans United pointed out, requires participants to take part in prayer, worship, Bible study and other religious activities. Program participants must sign a "Civil Rights Waiver" in which each surrenders the right to "exercis[e] the religion of my choice." |
The Rev Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United, said this group should not have been given federal funds in the first place. The group has no data to back up their claims of a high success rate. "Bush administration officials have claimed that they do not fund religious activities, but this grant suggests otherwise," he continued. "Apparently their policy is to do it until they get caught." |
Bit more @ link.
From the comments:
| Quote: | | How nice. And to make it even better, Obama intends to continue Bush's faith-based initiatives, Constitution be damned. |
| Quote: | | You CANNOT waive your Constitutional rights... They aren't Constitutional 'options', or 'whims'; rather they are RIGHTS. Does the word 'inalienable' have any meaning? |
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"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin |
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Max Bialystock
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| And now Obama talks about his "faith" more than McCain does. |
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
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Location: Winnipeg
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Tehanu
More or less, more or less
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| I've heard that before, DS2, and I'm not convinced. Far too much money being made beating the anti-choice, anti-SSM, anti-evolution drum. It's still a pretty loud drum, too, especially when a VP candidate is one of the people beating it. |
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sparqui
Dog tired
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 5152
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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Check out this excellent diary on the Daily Kos written by an escapee of the US Dominionist Movement:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1/27/15309/5588/151/444280
I'm half way through part 1 and also read the background diary entry by dogemperor about her personal experience with the cult.
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Hephaestion
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Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:18 am Post subject: |
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Always worth posting, for any who may have missed it before:
Joe Bageant: The Covert Kingdom
Chilling.
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"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin |
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sparqui
Dog tired
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Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:43 am Post subject: |
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Damn good article. Thank Heph. I think every effort should be made to expose Harper and many in his caucus' connections with such extreme fundamentalist Christian groups. I think Canadians by and large would be aghast to think they had such people holding public office.
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“If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a tractor.”
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Tehanu wrote: | | I've heard that before, DS2, and I'm not convinced. Far too much money being made beating the anti-choice, anti-SSM, anti-evolution drum. It's still a pretty loud drum, too, especially when a VP candidate is one of the people beating it. |
No doubt we still hear about those issues. But when did you hear about that? Keep in mind that this is an emerging trend within evangelical Christian communities that has only sprung up in the last few years, so it hasn't had as much time to spread major influence. And as the clip said, it's not about large numbers even, but just a swing of a few votes could have an impact.
From Heph's article (emphasis mine):
| Quote: | | Time out please In a nod toward fairness and tolerance---begging the question of whether liberals are required to tolerate the intolerant---I will say this: Fundamentalists are "good people." In daily life, they are warm-hearted and generous to a fault. They live with feet on the ground (albeit with eyes cast heavenward) and with genuine love and concern for their neighbors. After spending 30 years in progressive western cities such as Boulder, Colorado and Eugene, Oregon, I would have to say that conservative Christians actually do what liberals usually only talk about. They visit the sick and the elderly, give generously of their time and money to help those in need, and put unimaginable amounts of love and energy into their families, even as Pat Robertson and Rush Limbaugh blare in the background. Their good works extend internationally-were it not for American Christians, there would be little health care on the African continent and other similar places. |
That's interesting. Bookish Agrarian has previously mentioned that community is important in small towns, and that conservative politicians are the only ones who speak to those values (and I have met conservative Christians who have treated me very well). So why, as this author has noted, are liberals so bad at putting into practice personally the very values they claim to espouse politically?
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This is pre-eminently the time, to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself-Franklin Delano Roosevelt |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| DSquared wrote: | | That's interesting. Bookish Agrarian has previously mentioned that community is important in small towns, and that conservative politicians are the only ones who speak to those values (and I have met conservative Christians who have treated me very well). So why, as this author has noted, are liberals so bad at putting into practice personally the very values they claim to espouse politically? |
I disagree that "conservatives" do what "liberals" preach. Some conservatives give generously of their time and money through charities, whereas socialists and social-democrats would rather give that same money through a progressive taxation system and properly funded social programmes.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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fork
Utensil
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 1283
Location: Left . . . of the plate
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| DSquared wrote: | | So why, as this author has noted, are liberals so bad at putting into practice personally the very values they claim to espouse politically? |
They're not.
Here we go again with the moral superiority of the religious. |
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| TS. wrote: | | DSquared wrote: | | That's interesting. Bookish Agrarian has previously mentioned that community is important in small towns, and that conservative politicians are the only ones who speak to those values (and I have met conservative Christians who have treated me very well). So why, as this author has noted, are liberals so bad at putting into practice personally the very values they claim to espouse politically? |
I disagree that "conservatives" do what "liberals" preach. Some conservatives give generously of their time and money through charities, whereas socialists and social-democrats would rather give that same money through a progressive taxation system and properly funded social programmes. |
So your answer is the difference in focus between individual vs societal actions? That often places liberals at a disadvantage. Say you have a conservative building houses for Habitat for Humanity, and a liberal saying that we'll get the government to build housing for people (to most of the population that's essentially what the argument boils down to), who do you think people are going to trust has the right answers on providing housing for people? Trinity United has the following it does not because of its politics, but because it has a wide range of programs designed to meet the needs of the local community.
Put another way, the conservative in my example can point to HfH and say, "see, this works," and it's quite self-explanatory. What can the liberal point to in the same way?
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This is pre-eminently the time, to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself-Franklin Delano Roosevelt |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| DSquared wrote: | | TS. wrote: | | DSquared wrote: | | That's interesting. Bookish Agrarian has previously mentioned that community is important in small towns, and that conservative politicians are the only ones who speak to those values (and I have met conservative Christians who have treated me very well). So why, as this author has noted, are liberals so bad at putting into practice personally the very values they claim to espouse politically? |
I disagree that "conservatives" do what "liberals" preach. Some conservatives give generously of their time and money through charities, whereas socialists and social-democrats would rather give that same money through a progressive taxation system and properly funded social programmes. |
Put another way, the conservative in my example can point to HfH and say, "see, this works," and it's quite self-explanatory. What can the liberal point to in the same way? |
I'm not going to argue for "liberals", not being one myself. I will discuss what a socialist (or even social-democrat) can point to. A socialist can point to public healthcare that means you don't have to beg for charity if you break your leg or need an operation. Socialists can point to government funded subsidized housing that gets thousands of people off the street, rather than the tokenism of HfH that gets maybe ten families off the street. Socialists can point to a system of welfare that keeps (or would if it hadn't been stripped to the bone by conservatives) people from a Dickensian sort of poverty. Just because the Minister of Housing isn't out building HfH houses personally (though given the way politics works these days it wouldn't be surprising) doesn't mean that the government isn't tackling a problem. Conservative solutions may be higher profile, but they are also much less effective. Because for every ten families who get HfH houses, thousands more live in substandard, or insufficient, housing and the conservatives are telling them that the market will provide. Lost your job? Tough shit, you're on your own, the market will provide. Needed emergency surgery but didn't have health insurance so you're losing your home over the bills? Tough shit, you're on your own, the market will provide. Disabled and can't work? Tough shit, you're on your own, the market will provide. You get where I'm going with this.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| TS. wrote: | | You get where I'm going with this. |
I do. But ultimately what Bageant is trying to say is that even though these people have scary political views, you can see as the go about living their lives that they care for people, whether it's building HfH homes, operating a church soup kitchen for hungry people, or doing a summer camp to keep their children busy. He doesn't see this happen among liberals (that's the term he used, under which, for the purposes of this discussion I lumped socialists and social democrats because I think it fits). And regardless of how sound your logic actually is, you cannot win an argument with someone actively involved in his/her community, because (s)he can always trump you by saying "yeah, what are you doing to help out?"
That's why politicians love to talk about volunteer work they do in their communities. People see that and think, "yeah, (s)he really cares."
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This is pre-eminently the time, to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself-Franklin Delano Roosevelt |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| DSquared wrote: | | TS. wrote: | | You get where I'm going with this. |
I do. But ultimately what Bageant is trying to say is that even though these people have scary political views, you can see as the go about living their lives that they care for people, whether it's building HfH homes, operating a church soup kitchen for hungry people, or doing a summer camp to keep their children busy. |
The exact problem is, though, that in the larger equation, they don't care. They don't care that these people are stuck in poverty, they don't care that the poor don't have affordable places to live and they don't care that people have to choose between eating, paying the rent and paying the heating bill. If they did care, they would search for structural solutions, not band-aid measures that salve their consciences and let them happily vote for politicians that brutalize the very people they are feeding at their soup kitchens about about whom they piously claim to care.
| DSquared wrote: | | And regardless of how sound your logic actually is, you cannot win an argument with someone actively involved in his/her community, because (s)he can always trump you by saying "yeah, what are you doing to help out?" |
I would point out that I am trying to elect politicians that might actually enact structural remedies and fix the problem in the long term. I would point out that I am trying to create a world in which people don't have to go to a church begging for a cup of soup. I'm not interested in only doing what soothes my guilt, I want actual change.
I should be clear: I'm not saying "don't be active in your community." Far from it. I am saying, do this stuff, but work on the structural solutions to. If all you do is give an hour or two a week at a soup kitchen, and then go vote for a candidate that has no interest in structural solutions, be that candidate a Conservative, Liberal, New Democrat or Green, don't work for legislative change, don't right to members of Parliament letting them know about your concerns and demanding action, then in the end you are making the problem worse by papering over the harsh realties of poverty in this country, and letting others be blase about them.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| TS. wrote: | | If they did care, they would search for structural solutions, not band-aid measures that salve their consciences and let them happily vote for politicians that brutalize the very people they are feeding at their soup kitchens about about whom they piously claim to care. |
Or maybe they have no faith in government institutions to do anything about it. (Keep in mind that in the American context, people are innately suspicious of anything governmental.) And the logic behind it is quite simple: Person is hungry, I fed person, person stops being hungry. Person without home, I build HfH, person has home. Children have nothing to do, I set up camp, children have lots of fun. That's what it's about. You really think you're going to convince a bystander that someone who devotes half of his/her free time to a soup kitchen doesn't care about the hungry? While liberals may set out to win the debate, the conservatives set out to win people's hearts. If you can't win people's hearts, don't waste any time campaigning, because you will fail.
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This is pre-eminently the time, to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself-Franklin Delano Roosevelt |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| DSquared wrote: | | TS. wrote: | | If they did care, they would search for structural solutions, not band-aid measures that salve their consciences and let them happily vote for politicians that brutalize the very people they are feeding at their soup kitchens about about whom they piously claim to care. |
Or maybe they have no faith in government institutions to do anything about it. (Keep in mind that in the American context, people are innately suspicious of anything governmental.) And the logic behind it is quite simple: Person is hungry, I fed person, person stops being hungry. Person without home, I build HfH, person has home. Children have nothing to do, I set up camp, children have lots of fun. That's what it's about. While liberals may set out to win the debate, the conservatives set out to win people's hearts. If you can't win people's hearts, don't waste any time campaigning, because you will fail. |
Actively seeking to elect politicians who run on platforms of brutalizing the poor is evidence of being uncaring. Actively campaigning to keep public housing projects out of your neighbourhood is evidence of being uncaring. Fighting against increased taxation to fund school breakfast programmes is evidence of being uncaring. Fighting against a universal childcare and early childhood education programme is evidence of being uncaring. These conservatives only care about salving their own conscience. They think that if they feed one hungry person, house one homeless family or send one child to summer camp they are emulating Christ when he washed the feet of the beggars. It is no different from the ritual of the Queen of England washing the feet of one random poor person from London each year that was carried on in the Middle Ages and into the Renaissance. It is tokenism, and wilful blindness.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| TS. wrote: | | Actively seeking to elect politicians who run on platforms of brutalizing the poor is evidence of being uncaring. |
"Welfare encourages dependence and keeps people from achieving their potential."
| TS. wrote: | | Actively campaigning to keep public housing projects out of your neighbourhood is evidence of being uncaring. |
"We built 5 Habitat for Humanity houses on our street, and we're building more. What are you talking about?"
| TS. wrote: | | Fighting against increased taxation to fund school breakfast programmes is evidence of being uncaring. |
"More taxes? I can't afford more taxes. How can you claim to care about the poor if you want the government to take more of my money and waste it?"
| TS. wrote: | | Fighting against a universal childcare and early childhood education programme is evidence of being uncaring. |
"I didn't have kids so the government could take them away and raise them. Why do you want the government to do that?"
With respect, you have missed my point completely. I agree that Christian fundamentalists pose a threat, but your approach to dealing with them is ineffective. You can't argue with people. The only way to meet this threat is to try and understand their thought processes, what led them to come to these conclusions about life, what do they feel fundamentalist Chrisitanity offers them, and then find a positive alternative. This concept isn't new to progressives. Progressives are the first to defend people in impoverished neighbourhoods who join criminal gangs and express their frustration in socially destructive ways. If progressives can show empathy and understanding for people who join criminal gangs, surely they can show empathy for fundamentalist Christians.
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This is pre-eminently the time, to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself-Franklin Delano Roosevelt |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| DSquared wrote: | | With respect, you have missed my point completely. I agree that Christian fundamentalists pose a threat, but your approach to dealing with them is ineffective. You can't argue with people. The only way to meet this threat is to try and understand their thought processes, what led them to come to these conclusions about life, what do they feel fundamentalist Chrisitanity offers them, and then find a positive alternative. This concept isn't new to progressives. Progressives are the first to defend people in impoverished neighbourhoods who join criminal gangs and express their frustration in socially destructive ways. If progressives can show empathy and understanding for people who join criminal gangs, surely they can show empathy for fundamentalist Christians. |
Sorry, no. The vast majority of politically active fundamentalist Christians have deliberately and knowingly set themselves on a political path of brutalizing the poor, non-whites, non-heterosexuals, non-Christians and women, among others. They walked into their political path with eyes open. They didn't get sucked into the world of fundamentalist Christianity as part of a cycle of poverty, systemic pro-white bias and lack of social programming. That is the distinction. I don't have empathy for those who get their political kicks by attacking the most vulnerable members of society.
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:01 am Post subject: |
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Worthwhile interview with Joe Bageant
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This is pre-eminently the time, to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself-Franklin Delano Roosevelt |
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bshmr
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 4004
Location: Central USA, Earth
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:18 am Post subject: |
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DSquared, the syntax is confusing to me as it appears that you quoted your own contributions. I concluded that because I didn't find any other occurence of "Welfare encourages" on this page. A very strange, and telling, convention if so and in any case.
| DSquared wrote: | "Welfare encourages dependence and keeps people from achieving their potential."
...
"More taxes? I can't afford more taxes. How can you claim to care about the poor if you want the government to take more of my money and waste it?"
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"I didn't have kids so the government could take them away and raise them. Why do you want the government to do that?"
... |
Unfounded and illogical, every last 'quoted' paragraph; invalid generalizations and manipulative fabrications. I am too flummoxed to burn any more time. |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:54 am Post subject: |
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What DSquared did was postulate likely fundy responses to my statements.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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bshmr
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 4004
Location: Central USA, Earth
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks for explaining the syntax. My response to the content remains -- i.e. "unfounded and illogical" ... . |
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Rufus Polson
Purple Library Guy
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 3483
Location: SFU and/or the college of Riddlemastery at Caithnard
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: |
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Well, yes, but Dsquared wasn't claiming they'd be *right*, just that these answers would seem compelling to them--and therefore that typical left arguments would not.
Sidestepping the argument slightly and moving to a development of how and in what direction to try to persuade these people, I'd like to say that the problem with right-wing charities isn't so much that they're non-governmental. It's that they're paternalistic. If you want real progress your concentration should be on helping the poor organize, not on giving them a fish today. Fundies can talk about welfare encouraging dependency among the poor, but top-down charities do the same only worse, plus on top are far less effective. And right-wing charities pretty much *have* to be that way because hierarchical thinking is built into the whole strict-ruling-father mentality.
So if they want something that will be of some use and avoid the "handout" approach and encourage self-reliance--all the stuff they say they want to do--they need to work on helping people organize to help themselves and exert political pressure themselves. That is to say, they need to do things the grassroots leftist way.
Which brings us to the question of the left and community action. There's plenty of leftists doing strong work for the poor. The distinction tends to be that the right gives soup to poor people who mind their Ps and Qs, while the left is generally more willing to help out the "undeserving" poor and the embarrassing poor. The prostitutes and the homeless and the drug addicts and the slumdwellers. The women who have been victimized by men. The gays and trans who have been victimized by everyone. And the left is more likely to help them out on their terms, and help them find voices for themselves. Is it a bunch of rightwingers helping the poor victims of Katrina/Louisiana developers try to get back their own homes? No, it's leftists and the people themselves organizing, and fat chance the right wing charities will get involved.
Just at the moment in North America, of course, the right is simply more numerous than the left, and it has a lot more money. Per person-dollar, though, I'd be willing to bet the left does more and in more useful ways. So to hell with this "Oh, the fundies are so personally active and the left never does anything" crap.
Internationally, incidentally, we're reaching the point where secular Cubans, from that little flyspeck island, do nearly as much work with the poor as the whole US of A. And again, probably much more useful work. |
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Raos
volatilis vir
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5472
Location: Petropolis
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: |
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Awesome post, Rufus. Hall of Fame worthy, in fact. |
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bshmr
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 4004
Location: Central USA, Earth
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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The God-fearing and God-rewarded folks, who I am acquainted with, simplify things into threes <g>. For example: 1. The truly faithful in a proper church prosper. 2. God is a demanding, fair taskmaster;, 3. Satan blindly gives stuff away (through government) keeping sinners ignorant and sinning.
Imagine P, down the street, believes that 'freebies', money-making opportunities, and great deals flow to him (and his long-term house-mate) because of his godly beliefs, godly vibes, and godly deeds. He is into 'hate radio' (Savage, Limbaugh, O'Reiilly) and the righteous tyranny of GWB et al. Inside his world, when God is charge, everything is as it should be, even his injured knee. All interactions either feed his personal myths or alienate. It is a closed, respective system. |
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Cartman
Beyond cuddly
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8635
Location: OMG! They killed Jason Kenney!
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Yup, that was Hall of Fame worthy Rufus. |
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Rufus Polson
Purple Library Guy
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 3483
Location: SFU and/or the college of Riddlemastery at Caithnard
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:15 am Post subject: |
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| Incidentally, I'm not saying that no religious charitable groups do anything well. From what I've heard, for instance, I have a great deal of respect for the Mennonite Central Committee. But their approach, and as far as I know their politics, is not right wing. |
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| Rufus Polson wrote: | | From what I've heard, for instance, I have a great deal of respect for the Mennonite Central Committee. But their approach, and as far as I know their politics, is not right wing. |
I didn't know they approached politics.
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This is pre-eminently the time, to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself-Franklin Delano Roosevelt |
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Rufus Polson
Purple Library Guy
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 3483
Location: SFU and/or the college of Riddlemastery at Caithnard
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:18 am Post subject: |
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Which by itself sets them apart from right wing churches.
But if you're active at anything there's a sort of implicit politics in what you do, and theirs doesn't strike me as rightish in direction. |
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buday4vancouverinde
Member
Joined: 28 Jun 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: Hmmm.... |
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Should it be a question of God and Politics or specific religion or official state religion and politics; clergy running and voting for office and making endorcements. State religion like the Church of England.
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Best,
Gölök "LD Taylored" Buday
Artist, Entertainer, Humanist (writer, etc...), Philotician & Candidate for Vancouver (Mayor - I) FBID# 763864821 - "Apathy is the root of all evil's enabling." -- Gölök Zoltán Leenderdt Franco Buday |
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bagkitty
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 17 Sep 2008
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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If God wants to get involved in politics then God should fill out a nomination form, get the required signatures and pay the deposit just like any other candidate. Who the hell does God think it is, Steven Harper? 
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Whom the hive does not cherish, it eats. |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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I figured we were all hooped as soon as the NDP felt compelled to throw a sop to god-botherers in the form of official recognition of the "Faith and Social Justice Caucus".
Now even progressives can vote for Whatever Jesus Would Do. Yay!
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Reverend Blair
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2255
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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I get the feeling that if Jesus were a real person he'd tell all his followers to piss off and leave him alone.
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He was a wise man who invented beer.
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ronb
mocker
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2627
Location: Blackroof country, no gold pavement, tired starling
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I just finished an excellent novel by Jose Saramago called The Gospel According to Jesus Christ where that is pretty much the theme. Most effective dissection of Christian dogma I've ever read. |
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:16 am Post subject: |
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How does God expect us to vote?
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This is pre-eminently the time, to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself-Franklin Delano Roosevelt |
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Caissa
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 1146
Location: Saint John
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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NDP, of course. The Naturally Dogmatic Party  |
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bshmr
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 4004
Location: Central USA, Earth
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bshmr
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 4004
Location: Central USA, Earth
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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Twisting the dial to find a radio station with some news this morning, I paused to listen to a 'civics lesson' followed by the interview and commentary, which referred to the excerpt below. Not immediately recognizing "FRC.org" and then still curious about the situation, I tried to search FRC for the story. Yahoo and Google were more helpful thus I found the official FRC record of another "battle in the war against religion" on which their commentator 'played' with a conservative legislator and VFW spokesperson. BTW, I did not scour the world for the FRC (Washington Watch?) audio.
It has been an intriguing event to 'research'. No doubt springing from one or two self-righteous devouts feeling rejected as their 'act' was censored or scorned. I speculate that some rigid,rising-star, evangelic preacher upon being told that this family desires a secular/other-belief funeral got into a huff or wail. .. Faux Noose spin is enabling if not inciting, similar to FRC's.
Oh, this has been settled, according to the broadcast, by agreement -- that is, the policies (both VA & FRC) remain unchanged while efforts to eradicate ignorance and dis-information continue.
Also, I have appended a link to an AlterNet presentation of several other perspectives, which incidentally each seems more lucid to me.
| Quote: | ...
Houston, You've Got a Problem
Despite a lawsuit and inquiries from Congressional leaders, "God" and "Jesus" are still no-nos at the Houston National Cemetery. The Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) in Houston, Texas filed a lawsuit because of aggressive and hostile censorship at the nation's second largest cemetery by Cemetery Director Arleen Ocasio. According to the VFW, Ocasio has banned religious language at funerals and has closed the cemetery chapel, using it as "a meeting facility." Congressman Ted Poe (R-Texas), a former state judge, wrote a letter of inquiry to the Veterans Affairs Secreary Eric K. Shinseki. Shinseki has denied that the agency has trampled on the religious freedoms of veterans and has refused to dismiss Ocasio.
To confirm what Rep. Poe is saying, Congressman John Culberson (R-Texas), went undercover to a military funeral. Rep. Culberson reports that the cemetery chapel is now used for storage and says Director Ocasio's agents are now confronting grieving widows as they emerge from the funeral processions to ask if they want "God" in their loved ones' ceremonies. Rep. Culberson is seeking to cut off funding for the cemetery director's position. I've spoken to Rep. Poe and offered to support his efforts in any way possible. This is just one more example of an administration doggedly determined to chase Christianity from public life.
... |
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=WU11G18&f=PG07J01
**
Texas Legislators and Christian Groups Fight to Insert God Into Vets' Funerals -- Against Families' Wishes
| Quote: | Christian military groups are suing the VA to force families to include prayer during the burial services of veterans.
... |
http://www.alternet.org/world/152143/texas_legislators_and_christia... |
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fork
Utensil
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 1283
Location: Left . . . of the plate
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know how to reproduce the invite as is, but here's the text for NB's First Annual Premier's Provincial Prayer Breakfast:
The Progressive Conservative Party of NB / Le Parti progressiste-Conservateur du Nouveau-Brunswick
The 1st annual Premier's Provincial Prayer Breakfast will be held Wednesday, November 23, 2011, at 7:30 am, at the Delta Hotel, Fredericton, NB.
This is the opening day of the 2nd Session of the 57th Legislature. The keynote speaker will be Premier David Alward with readings from Lieutenant Governor The Honourable Graydon Nicholas, Opposition Leader Victor Boudreau and NDP Leader Dominic Cardy. Music by recording artist Becka DeHaan.
Advance tickets, $30, will be sold at the Lighthouse Family Resource Centre, 60 Bishop Drive, Fredericton. 453-1010. Tickets will not be sold at the door. Translation services provided.
*********************************************************************************************
Le Premier déjeuner provincial de prières avec le premier ministre aura lieu le mercredi, 23 novembre 2011, à 7 h 30, à l'hôtel Delta de Fredericton, N.-B.
Il s'agit de la journée d'ouverture de la deuxième session de la 57e Législature. Le conférencier d'honneur sera le premier ministre David Alward. Le lieutenant-gouverneur, l'honorable Graydon Nicholas, le chef de l'opposition, Victor Boudreau, et le chef du NPD, Dominic Cardy, feront des lectures. Avec de la musique de l'artiste Becka DeHaan.
Les billets seront vendus à l'avance au coût de 30 $ au Lighthouse Family Resource Center situé au 60, promenade Bishop, à Fredericton. 453-1010. Il n'y aura pas de billets à vendre à la porte. Des services de traduction seront offerts.
The Progressive Conservative Party of NB / Le Parti progressiste-Conservateur du Nouveau-Brunswick |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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First annual?
So they can't even fall back on the old "but it's a tradition".
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bshmr
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 4004
Location: Central USA, Earth
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| I had to lookup kali yuga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga which was an off-list explanation in response to something that I posted on-list. Ignoring the theological confusion, the characteristics of the 'age' reminds me of 'being left behind'. |
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