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thwap
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4564
Location: Hamilton
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 Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: Omar Khadr |
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The case of Omar Khadr should be relatively simple. As usual however, the bottom third of the Canadian political intellect is having enormous difficulties grasping very simple truths and is making everything much more complicated than it has to be.
Their argument (such as it is) is that Khadr's family was only Canadian for convenience. Without believing in the professed values of Canada, they took advantage of its free healthcare system. Furthermore, the Khadr family have close ties to the monstrous Al Qaeda terrorist organization. Finally (and most absurdly) Omar Khadr himself is supposed to be a hardened and dangerous terrorist, with his act of terrorism being throwing a grenade during a fire-fight with US troops in Afghanistan. Because of all of this, Khadr's torture and indefinite detention at the US Guantanmo Bay should be of no concern of any Canadian and the young man well deserves such treatment.
I'll go through these points in order. First of all, there are no differing grades of Canadian citizenship. All Canadian citizens are equal before the law. As such, the Canadian government has an equal obligation to defend all of us and all of our rights, especially when we are being subjected to extreme outrages such as illegal arrests and torture. Were it the case that the government could pick and choose which Canadians it defended based upon whether it liked them or not, we would find ourselves in very dangerous territory. I'd certainly take great sport if I was the Prime Minister, in publicly disavowing any responsibility for the rights of Canadian Council of Chief Executives leader Thomas D'Aquino, or any of the Blogging Tory mutants who daily state their hatred of core Canadian values, or any of the Liberal or Conservative swine pushing for the Security and Prosperity Partnership. (Now, as in the past, right-wing dunces will interpret the sentiments as displayed in that last sentence as evidence of my leftist totalitarianism, immorality and disregard for the rule of law. The fact that I'm only illustrating the dangers of their own political beliefs will be completely lost on them, this clarifying sentence notwithstanding!)
Regarding the fact that Omar Khadr's sole claim to being Canadian is that he was born here, I can only respond: "So?" That's all that I had to do as well. There's millions of people in this country who enjoy the relatively high living standards and political freedoms of being Canadian while they're all the while the most unsavoury sorts of human beings, and they have a right to this as a birthright due to those born within the latitudes and longitudes of the political entity of Canada. End of story.
Continuing, there's the argument that the Khadr's had allied themselves with Al Qaeda. This is one of the most evil organizations on earth, responsible for the deaths of thousands of people and the immense sufferings of tens of thousands more. Al Qaeda espouses a vile religious-political philosophy that is a direct threat to our freedoms and our way of life. While all of that is true, the argument of the right-wing is that because Al Qaeda is bad, we are justified in physically exterminating them and torturing their children. Which is kind of a gigantic exercise in dangerous, self-righteous hypocrisy. Al Qaeda's greatest threat to our unevenly applied traditions of human rights and the rule of law is that it provides an excuse for the latent fascists among us to call for the abandonment of these values to expedite our suppression of it.
There's also the uncomfortable fact, generally unspeakable in our deluded and debased political culture, that Osama bin Laden and his Al Qaeda have genuine grievances against the world system dominated by the United States. In his statement immediately after the 9-11 attack, bin Laden referred to
| Quote: | | Millions of innocent children are being killed as I speak. They are being killed in Iraq without committing any sins, and we don't hear condemnation or a fatwa (religious decree) from the rulers. In these days, Israeli tanks infest Palestine — in Jenin, Ramallah, Rafah, Beit Jalla, and other places in the land of Islam, and we don't hear anyone raising his voice or moving a limb. |
Bin Laden is referring to the murderous UN Sanctions against Iraq, supervised and enforced by the US and UK leaders Bill Clinton and Tony Blair, which (all duplicitous objections to this truth aside) were responsible for the deaths of one-million Iraqis, half of them children. One-million is a lot of people. I don't know about you, but I don't have one-million family and friends, so that would be me plus everyone I know and love. He's also referring to the ongoing oppression of the Palestinians by the Israeli state, which has continued to descend to every level of barbarism. Some idiots, when unable to argue against the truth about these crimes, have tried to argue that bin Laden is merely using our own atrocities as an excuse for his violence. Evidently, like bush II's conception of Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden is a "madman" interested in murder and violence simply for their own sakes. [Given his own shaky grasp on reality and his enthusiastic embrace of military violence, I'd wager that bush II is the craziest of all three of these monsters.]
The justification for this explanation of Al Qaeda's motives is this: If we in the West can click our tongues in condemnation of anyone allying themselves to the violent, inhuman Al Qaeda, why the hell shouldn't we do the same thing for people who join the US army or who support the US government? Among other things, bush II renewed the legal immunity for "Blackwater" mercenaries in Iraq, even after they'd shown themselves to be incompetent, trigger-happy goons with a horrifying disregard for the lives of Iraqi civilians. Legal immunity!! What do we expect to happen when one gives mercenaries legal immunity? Wholesale slaughter is what did happen and what will happen, as bush II well knew when he pressed for continued immunity. Just because most of the people in the West are too ignorant and too debased to grasp the extent of our own inhumanity in the Middle East, doesn't eliminate the fact that some people from that part of the world are aware of our crimes and therefore don't see joining Al Qaeda as all that insanely evil a decision. We bomb people indiscriminately. We rob them. We shoot them in the thousands. We torture them. We trade images of their mutilated corpses for pornography from "nowthatsfuckedup.com" We create millions of refugees. But 3/4's of us are incapable of identifying any genuine grievances anyone could have against us.
Now we get to the individual Omar Khadr himself. At the age of 15, after a lifetime under his father's tutelage, and years of contact with Al Qaeda, he was at a house in Afghanistan that came under attack by US soldiers. At some point in the fight, the Americans believed that all in the house had been killed and there was a momentary lapse in their defenses. At this point, a grenade was thrown from the house, killing one Sgt. Christopher Speer. I don't know anything about Sgt. Speer. I know that he was at the very least, somebody's son. It must be difficult to lose a child and I sympathize with whatever grief his passing has caused. But at the same time, it has to be acknowledged that there have been a million excess deaths as a result of Western rampaging in Iraq, as well as uncounted thousands dead from starvation and violence in Afghanistan. As well, Speer was killed in a military action. To charge Khadr (whom recent evidence suggests might not have even thrown the grenade that killed Speer) with a "war crime" for throwing a grenade during a fire-fight goes against even the logic of hyper-hypocrite and torture advocate John Yoo.
Alas, it's not beyond the denizens of the Canadian right-wing blog-o-sphere, or the leaders of Canada's Shittiest Government who are all fine-and-dandy with Khadr's being beaten, tortured at Guantanamo Bay and his upcoming prosecution at the hands of bush II's illegitimate kangaroo court system there. Khadr deserves no rights and no sympathy because, ... well, apparently because he was his father's son.
At 15 years of age, Khadr should have known that Al Qaeda was an evil organization, even though such clarity of thought is beyond impressionable North Americans in the cases of their own militaries and governments. Khadr should have realized, out in the wilds of Afghanistan with probably zero sources of alternative information that his father was an evil man. That's what your average North American boy realizes when he hears that his father the business man owns sweat-shops, or is a slum-lord, or who denies people medical coverage, or who slaughtered peasants in Vietnam or who overthrows poor country governments or whatever.
To hear torture advocates like Raphael Alexander present the case, neither Khadr's youth, his upbringing, his Canadian citizenship, or the fact that his alleged crime appears to have been defending himself in a fire-fight, qualifies him for our sympathy or our government's obligation to defend his rights. Which is complete nonsense. As I hope I have established.
For god's sake; Khadr asked that he be killed when he was captured. Instead, for reasons known only to themselves, the psychopaths in the US military took him prisoner, chained him to the floor of a plane, forced him to soil himself on his journey to Guantanamo Bay, kicking him repeatedly, and they've held him for five years of abuse, to, evidently try him by a military tribunal that has no legitimacy and, therefore, will produce a "conviction" that nobody beyond the insane bush II regime and its equally insane and dismally stupid fans will believe in.
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sparqui
Dog tired
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 5152
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent post thwap!
Wonder how many teenage sons of Blackwater mercenaries know what their dads really get up to? How many teenage kids know that part of daddy's Gitmo guard duties include water boarding? And even if they do and are told by their parents that it's all good, because it's done to fight evil, does the crime of the father apply to his children just because they didn't file a statement condemning torture or murder?
Law and order crowd only see minors as adults when it comes to crime and are fixated on controlling their sexual and social behaviour. Old enough to know the right thing doesn't apply across the board.
The bottom line is that the whole Guantanamo set up is an illegal sham and any pretense of justice being served has been thrown out the window.
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thwap
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4564
Location: Hamilton
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Sparqui, I've been reading about European imperialism in Asia lately, and it seems that people's ideas about "morality" and "enemies" are generally founded on ignorance and hypocrisy.
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Leisure Suit Larry
*BANNED*
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 103
Location: The best place on earth, Enmasse!
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:15 am Post subject: Re: Omar Khadr |
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| thwap wrote: | | Instead, for reasons known only to themselves, the psychopaths in the US military took him prisoner, chained him to the floor of a plane, forced him to soil himself on his journey to Guantanamo Bay, kicking him repeatedly, and they've held him for five years of abuse |
Don't forget, most of these claims of abuse come from Khadr himself. You can't exactly take his word for it. |
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:34 am Post subject: |
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Right. And George "Mushroom Cloud" Bush's word is golden.
What an ass you are, Dagmar.
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anne cameron
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 3078
Location: tahsis, british columbia
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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..."you can't exactly take his word for it"..........why not? You surely do not expect his torturers to admit what they are doing?
I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt, however.... I have this feeling you might be the one-eared guy who ravaged a horse. (you really should have chosen a mare, horses probably wouldn't appreciate your two inch attentions.) |
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No Yards
Glutton for Punishment
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2944
Location: Toronto Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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Doesn't matter if you believe him or not ... the only thing that should result from anyone not believing him would be a fair trial. No one loses their human and legal rights just because you don't believe them.
I find your location tag to be a bit offencive as well .. yes, I know that it's a restaurant owned by a former wrestler, but I seriously doubt that you've used it as a homage to food or wrestling.
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thwap
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4564
Location: Hamilton
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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You see Daggy, ... yours was the sort of uninformed, racist, ugly, contemptible opinion I was thinking about when I wrote that piece.
To begin with, after all those various points I put forth, your pathetic ejaculation that all we have to go on is Khadr's claims to having been tortured was the entirety of your defense.
But even that is a laughable excuse for an argument.
All we have is Khadr's claim to having been tortured.
This:
| Quote: | Doctors, nurses and medics caring for the approximately 600 prisoners at the U.S. naval base in Cuba are required to provide health information to military and CIA interrogators, according to the report in the respected New England Journal of Medicine.
"Since late 2003, psychiatrists and psychologists (at Guantanamo) have been part of a strategy that employs extreme stress, combined with behavior-shaping rewards, to extract actionable intelligence from resistant captives," it states.
Such tactics are considered torture by many authorities, the authors note. |
And Oh, and ... the circumstantial evidence that the bush II regime put its prison in Guantanamo Bay in a stupid attempt to have a prison they controlled but which they could argue was exempt from US law. A contention struck down by a very radical and pro-bush II Supreme Court,
plus ...
The circumstantial evidence that the White House legal advisors from the Justice Department tried to argue that interrogation doesn't approach torture unless the subject loses an organ or a limb or dies,
plus ...
The claims of numerous former inmates of Guantanamo Bay that they were tortured.
So, aside from all that, yeah we don't have much to go on.
Daggy, earlier you said that the Left "hates" the US. I think you're confusing "criticism" with "hatred." There are elements of the US political culture that are hate-able (bush II himself f'rinstance), but wholesale hatred? It's all in your pathetic excuse for a brain.
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ronb
mocker
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2627
Location: Blackroof country, no gold pavement, tired starling
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Don't forget, most of these claims of abuse come from Khadr himself. You can't exactly take his word for it. |
In the absence of due process, his word is as good as anybody else's in this matter. So you have to take his word for it. Like it or lump it. That's what happens when you throw due process out. |
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Cartman
Beyond cuddly
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8635
Location: OMG! They killed Jason Kenney!
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ronb wrote: | | Quote: |
Don't forget, most of these claims of abuse come from Khadr himself. You can't exactly take his word for it. |
In the absence of due process, his word is as good as anybody else's in this matter. So you have to take his word for it. Like it or lump it. That's what happens when you throw due process out. |
Heh, no kidding. Although, you can just accept the government's version of things. |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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How is it that everyone sympathetic to Omar describes him as having been brainwashed "by his father"?
Is it because he's dead, so he makes a good scapegoat?
Was Mama Khadr in a coma during that time?
I haven't yet heard Mama Khadr repudiate any of their jihadalicious nuttery, so is there really some reason to hold her blameless in this?
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thwap
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4564
Location: Hamilton
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Fer chrissakes, ... what the fuck do YOU think happened? Maybe t'was Omar who steered his family wrong? And what's your point if it was Mama Khadr? How does that change anything about the boy being steered into the life he led by his parents?
Of all the irrelevant, useless questions!
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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It just seems funny to me that she's still alive, and still spouting her screeds, but nobody seems to think she was in any way responsible for Omar's extracurricular activities. Everyone mentions dead Dad, nobody ever mentions still-alive-and-living-in-Canada Mom.
You yourself did it. Would you like to clarify? Or edit your post to reflect reality?
| Quote: | | Maybe t'was Omar who steered his family wrong? |
Of all the irrelevant, useless answers!
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No Yards
Glutton for Punishment
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2944
Location: Toronto Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | It just seems funny to me that she's still alive, and still spouting her screeds, but nobody seems to think she was in any way responsible for Omar's extracurricular activities. Everyone mentions dead Dad, nobody ever mentions still-alive-and-living-in-Canada Mom.
You yourself did it. Would you like to clarify? Or edit your post to reflect reality?
| Quote: | | Maybe t'was Omar who steered his family wrong? |
Of all the irrelevant, useless answers! |
So what does it matter then Mcgoo?
Let's just assume it was his mother that was the problem? Hell, let's just assume that Omar was the instigator of this whole Al Qeada organization.
How does this make any difference at all as to how we respect our own laws, international laws, and the whole system of justice in general?
These people are, even at their worst, not as bad as Hitler and his crew, and they (the ones that were captured alive) got a far trial.
Whether Omar, his Dad or mom, were the nicest of people, or the worst of people, what ... the ... fuck .... does ... it .... matter ... in ... terms ... of ... a ... civilized .... justice ... system?
Omar's a fucking jerk; He, with the help of his mother and father probably came up with this whole "islamo-terrorism" plan, and are given Bin Laden his marching orders ... fine, you can have that one. Now, can we get back to why "our side" can just ignore the rule of law and basic human rights?
As much as I would love to be the one who was in charge of the torture of the current USian administration, I'd have to at least admit that I was 'happily' breaking the law and that even those scum had some basic legal and human rights coming to them.
Why is it so hard for the right to just admit that they have no respect for legal and human rights (and constitutions in general) because they see justice as getting in the way of their "my gut feels it - justice" system.
When it comes to making assumptions of guilt, the left has a tendency to assume the guilt of people like Bush, Cheny et al to real crimes, while "the right" has a tendency to assume not only the guilt, but the "crime" as well, thus we get people assuming Khadr is "guilty" of a "crime" that legally speaking, likely doesn't even exist.
Kucinich himself was able to document 35 articles of impeachments for 35 real crimes that had significant evidence of possibly being committed by, or abetted by Bush. Many of them, including the ones touching on torture, have pretty well been admitted to by the administration (changing the definition of torture to include torture for instance) but right wingers can't conceive of facing the fact that your "Commander 'n cheat" is likely a war criminal.
The evidence against Khadr is so weak it makes the hypotheses of "intelligent design" look like a scientific theory ... that may upset some people who just automatically believe that standing up to the USA is by definition "terrorism" or a "war crime", but the fact is that the rule of law and the evidence says otherwise.
How anyone can cheer on the US attempt to simply declare that "whenever we invade a country, anyone, even children, who resist are going to defined as having no legal or human rights, and will automatically be charged, found guilty, and punished as war criminals, all that with no recourse to a fair defence let alone an appeal", is beyond my ability to comprehend ... their feelings of cowardice must really be overwhelming when they think that they are actually in so much danger from a child, because he may have stood up to the USA, that legal and human rights are too onerous to allow ... the lack of moral courage is breathtaking.
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I follow, but more importantly, respect the Golden Rule. I fully and completely respect your right to be 'done on to' as you would 'do on to' others. |
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thwap
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4564
Location: Hamilton
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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Whether it's his father or his mother is entirely pointless. It's not the issue here and it's a distraction from everything else that's being discussed.
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Leisure Suit Larry
*BANNED*
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 103
Location: The best place on earth, Enmasse!
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:55 am Post subject: |
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I say bring young Khadr back to Canada... but only after the Conservatives (hopefully supported by the NDP) pass a law holding parents responsible for the wrongful acts of their minor children.
Then Magoo's line of questioning would be very relevent. |
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unionist
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 2452
Location: Montréal
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| Leisure Suit Larry wrote: | | I say bring young Khadr back to Canada... but only after the Conservatives (hopefully supported by the NDP) pass a law holding parents responsible for the wrongful acts of their minor children. |
How sweet. Adding the word "minor" lets your parents off the hook, right?  |
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Topcat
Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2008
Posts: 63
Location: NYC
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:39 am Post subject: |
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Good thing I had my TrollAlarm installed, otherwise some replies in this thread might have persuaded me to enlist in the RMCP so I could torture brown-skinned people with a taser.
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Tehanu
More or less, more or less
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 17640
Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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Hear, hear, No Yards.
Anyone who is not horrified by the blatant disregard for human rights and the principles of justice in this case has indeed forfeited the moral high ground. |
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gunnar gunnarson
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 549
Location: The Arena of the Unwell
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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[pendant alert]
Should we think about merging threads? Seems like this discussion parallels what's going on here.
[/pendant alert] |
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Tehanu
More or less, more or less
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 17640
Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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True ... but that would mean that there would be a confusion of posts. A cacophony, even, since when threads are merged the posts are arranged by date. When an article gets put on the front page it automatically generates a new thread ...
Now, I suppose a friendly mod could put a note at the top of each post saying "From previously merged thread" or something? If it were felt to be important, that is.  |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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Or if said friendly mod had a barrel of time on her/his hands.
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No Yards
Glutton for Punishment
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2944
Location: Toronto Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Leisure Suit Larry wrote: | I say bring young Khadr back to Canada... but only after the Conservatives (hopefully supported by the NDP) pass a law holding parents responsible for the wrongful acts of their minor children.
Then Magoo's line of questioning would be very relevent. |
As yes, retro-active laws ... if you can't actually find a violation, create one and make it retro-active. In the true tradition of a devoted, want to be, dictator.
If the principles of democracy are so scary for right whingers, why are they so keen to send our children overseas to die (and kill) "protecting" them? By any objective standard, the reality is we are "over there" to steal their resources, and extend our power to the region; while "over here" we are using "security" as an excuse to chip away at our rights, and erect barriers to the people knowing what our "leaders" (gov & corp) are doing.
Our military is over in Afghanistan, supposedly protecting our "way of life and values", and you're over here trying to destroy them because you are afraid of children who have the gall to defend [url]their [/url]"way of life and values" against military invaders.
Fifteen year old kids, in Afghanistan, and armed with hand grenades, doesn't cause me to fear for "our way of life" near as much as the cowardly, ignorant, right whingers here in Canada, armed with an unstable explosive mixture of fear and hatred, combined with free speech and the vote.
I almost wish it were possible to suspend our real values in order to protect them ... being the real "terrorist" threatening our "way of life", people like you would have just about the same rights as you think the Khadr's should have ... the "right" to be guilty of being "scary".
Even though I truly do believe people like yourself are the real "terrorists", and I might support adding using "speech for the purpose of spreading sedition via actively promoting the act of illegally violating any persons human, legal, or constitutional rights", as a violation to the hate speech laws, at least I'd wait until you violated the law after it was written and enacted, before I'd charge you with it and put you on a fair and open trial in a constitutional justice system.
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I follow, but more importantly, respect the Golden Rule. I fully and completely respect your right to be 'done on to' as you would 'do on to' others. |
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thwap
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4564
Location: Hamilton
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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They're fighting for our freedom in Afghanistan!!!
That's so fucking awesome man!!! What does Afghanistan have to do with my "freedom"? How will a fundamentalist government in Afghanistan affect my "freedom"? (I'm using scare quotes because right-wing warmongers have no goddamned idea what freedom means when they blurt it out to rationalize some idiotic political belief. But let's talk about actual freedom and how the possibility of a fundamentalist government in Afghanistan could affect that.)
Will a fundamentalist government in Afghanistan affect:
1. My freedom to surf the internet in Canada? No.
2. My freedom to travel in Canada? No.
3. My freedom to type things on my blog? No.
4. My freedom to join a union? No.
5. My freedom to vote for the political party of my choice? No.
6. My freedom to protest? No.
And on and on it goes. The idea that the nature of the government in Afghanistan or any other distant, impoverished nation will adversely affect Canadian freedoms is absurd. About the only real danger to the freedoms of wealthy country citizens is when corporate employers take advantage of corrupt puppet-regimes to transfer jobs and security away from those citizens and give them to people brutalized and oppressed by the capitalist system.
But, say the warmongering idiots, if Afghanistan becomes a haven for Islamic fundamentalist terrorists, we Canadians will be endangered. And you know something? There's a tiny bit of truth to that theory. Too fucking bad that the US foreign-policy geniuses allowed Saudi Arabia and Pakistan to inculcate fundamentalism among the youth of Afghanistan. Too bad that they overthrew a secularist [albeit tryanical] government in Iraq and replaced it with one that epouses Sharia Law and close ties to the theocrats in Iran (both supposedly bad things according to the warmongers). Too fucking bad that the corruption and brutality of the Karzai/Warlord regime in Afghanistan has produced an unending stream of Afghan males for the insurgency there.
To sum up: The claim that "the troops" (god bless 'em) are dying for my freedom is absurd. Particularly when the actions of the warmonger bush II and Harper regimes are the ones stirring up anti-Western hatred with their naked imperialism.
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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"Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose." -- Kris Kristopherson
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"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin |
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Leisure Suit Larry
*BANNED*
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 103
Location: The best place on earth, Enmasse!
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Topcat wrote: | Good thing I had my TrollAlarm installed, otherwise some replies in this thread might have persuaded me to enlist in the RMCP so I could torture brown-skinned people with a taser.
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That's pretty nasty -- why is it that you hate the RCMP and make all sorts of unfounded, scurrilous accusations as to their activities but when it comes to Khadr, all of a sudden you take a "principled" innocent-until-proven-guilty stance?
You know, Canada's really a pretty nice place -- high standard of living, good jobs, a great deal of freedom... why do you trash us and our institutions in pursuit of a wrongheaded defense of someone who was a member of a group (Al Qaeda) that would like to blow this place up?
Just askin' |
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Tehanu
More or less, more or less
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 17640
Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Um, tell me you're not baiting again, are you, Larry?
Who are you talking to when you say they're making unfounded accusations against the RCMP? To give you the benefit of the doubt and to answer your question, I think you'll find that in both the case of Khadr AND the RCMP, many of us are concerned that the rights that all of us supposedly hold dear are upheld by our government and our police forces. And when those rights are violated, we get upset. Because among other things, it is incumbent on all of us to challenge abuses of authority.
No contradiction there.
"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves."
Abraham Lincoln |
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'lance
hundred aker woodsman
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 500
Location: the Monsoon Coast
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Tehanu wrote: | | Um, tell me you're not baiting again, are you, Larry? |
[old one]
If so, it's something of which he can justly claim to be a master.
[/old one]
O very well. I got nothin'... |
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Topcat
Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2008
Posts: 63
Location: NYC
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Leisure Suit Larry wrote: | | ...You know, Canada's really a pretty nice place... |
It is, despite an elite minority of bankers, bosses and their wannabe followers always trying to screw it up. You should visit that country some day to see for yourself instead of relying on tourism guide descriptions and the National Post online for your info.
Cheers. |
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Leisure Suit Larry
*BANNED*
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 103
Location: The best place on earth, Enmasse!
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Tehanu wrote: | Um, tell me you're not baiting again, are you, Larry?
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Uh... ok... you seem to be... but I'll bite...
I was responding to a poster who was attacking me. I also pointed out the utter hypocrisy of saying, on one hand, innocent until proven guilty, and on the other, making baseless accusations about the RCMP (this bullshit about tasering brown people). It's completely obnoxious and completely unfounded.
This is what I was pointing out. |
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ronb
mocker
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2627
Location: Blackroof country, no gold pavement, tired starling
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | why do you trash us and our institutions in pursuit of a wrongheaded defense of someone who was a member of a group (Al Qaeda) that would like to blow this place up? |
That's interesting. Canadian soldiers are over there as we type actually blowing the place up - killing young children in the process just the other day in fact. But WE are supposed to be afraid of THEM. Funny little world. |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Leisure Suit Larry wrote: | | Tehanu wrote: | Um, tell me you're not baiting again, are you, Larry?
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Uh... ok... you seem to be... but I'll bite...
I was responding to a poster who was attacking me. I also pointed out the utter hypocrisy of saying, on one hand, innocent until proven guilty, and on the other, making baseless accusations about the RCMP (this bullshit about tasering brown people). It's completely obnoxious and completely unfounded.
This is what I was pointing out. |
Completely unfounded, huh? If it is, it's certainly easy to mix up our occupation of Afghanistan (killing brown people) and our neo-fascist policing (tasering anyone they don't like) to come up with tasering brown people, since the Canadian state has pretty effectively proven that it doesn't like brown people.
_________________
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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No Yards
Glutton for Punishment
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2944
Location: Toronto Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I also pointed out the utter hypocrisy of saying, on one hand, innocent until proven guilty, and on the other, making baseless accusations about the RCMP (this bullshit about tasering brown people). It's completely obnoxious and completely unfounded. |
You still don't understand the difference between believing someone or some organization is guilty, and wanting the justice system to make a determination of such guilt (with the option of allowing for a decision of "not guility" as well,) and the "western values ignoring" act of believing being accused of being guilty is the same as being charged, tried, judged, and ready for the punishment phase.
If I want, I can believe the RCMP is a horrible organization filled with criminals that should be brought to justice, and if found guilty punished to the full extent of the law; but if I were to follow your methodology of "justice", I would just be advocating that the RCMP simply be punished. No trial, no impartial judgement, no examination of the evidence, just get someone in a position of power to declare guilt (or if necessary for appearances, hold a show trial) and move right on to the punishment phase.
Why do you hate our freedoms? Why are you trying to destroy our values and way of life?
_________________
I follow, but more importantly, respect the Golden Rule. I fully and completely respect your right to be 'done on to' as you would 'do on to' others. |
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Leisure Suit Larry
*BANNED*
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 103
Location: The best place on earth, Enmasse!
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| ronb wrote: | | Quote: | | why do you trash us and our institutions in pursuit of a wrongheaded defense of someone who was a member of a group (Al Qaeda) that would like to blow this place up? |
That's interesting. Canadian soldiers are over there as we type actually blowing the place up - killing young children in the process just the other day in fact. But WE are supposed to be afraid of THEM. Funny little world. |
Are you saying that Canadian soldiers are deliberately trying to kill civilians. Because if you are, that statement would be disgusting |
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Topcat
Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2008
Posts: 63
Location: NYC
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Leisure Suit Larry wrote: | | ...Are you saying that Canadian soldiers are deliberately trying to kill civilians. Because if you are, that statement would be disgusting |
Entertaining right-wing trolls are rare. |
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Leisure Suit Larry wrote: | | Are you saying that Canadian soldiers are deliberately trying to kill civilians. Because if you are, that statement would be disgusting |
Well, which are they? Civilians, or soldiers? Because if they're soldiers, then the Geneva Conventions apply, don't they? Otherwise, yes, Canadian soldiers ARE over there to kill civilians. Right?
_________________
"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin |
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No Yards
Glutton for Punishment
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2944
Location: Toronto Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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No one knows the mind of anyone else, so at this point claiming a "deliberation" on the killings is probably not possible, but consider this:
How many suicide bombings have been prevented by spraying oncoming vehicles with armour piercing bullets?
How many times has innocent people been killed using the technique of spraying oncoming vehicles with armour piercing bullets?
A pretty accurate guess would be in the range of 0% to 100% respectively.
Do they actually practice or prepair for this murderous failed tactic? If so then yes, they (or the people who approve this tactic) are deliberately murdering innocent people.
If they just participate in this form of murder because no one is telling them that what they are doing will almost surely result in the deaths of only innocent people, then the leadership is responsible for the murders.
And yes, that is disgusting.
_________________
I follow, but more importantly, respect the Golden Rule. I fully and completely respect your right to be 'done on to' as you would 'do on to' others. |
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ronb
mocker
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2627
Location: Blackroof country, no gold pavement, tired starling
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Are you saying that Canadian soldiers are deliberately trying to kill civilians. Because if you are, that statement would be disgusting |
However, Canadian soldiers sent halfway across the globe to riddle Afghan toddlers with armor piercing ordinance through sheer carelessness, well that's perfectly acceptable. Hunky dory, job well done fellers, carry on with the freedomizing. Hearts and minds! |
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gunnar gunnarson
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 549
Location: The Arena of the Unwell
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:18 am Post subject: |
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ronb, why do you hate the troops? 
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We want the finest wines available to humanity! |
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ronb
mocker
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2627
Location: Blackroof country, no gold pavement, tired starling
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| I hate them for their freedom, gunnar. |
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ronb wrote: | | I hate them for their freedom, gunnar. |
I hate those wimmin in those tampon commercials for their freedoms.
... mutter mumble... riding horses, swimmin', riding motorbikes, playin' tennis.... mutter mumble
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"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin |
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bshmr
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 4004
Location: Central USA, Earth
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Hephaestion wrote: | | [... I hate those wimmin in those tampon commercials for their freedoms. ... mutter mumble... riding horses, swimmin', riding motorbikes, playin' tennis.... mutter mumble |
Well! Then, turn your outsides in so that you too can enjoy the products as well as those freedoms. |
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Leisure Suit Larry
*BANNED*
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 103
Location: The best place on earth, Enmasse!
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:00 am Post subject: |
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Since I'm leaving soon, I gotta tell you this: I'm glad that Khadr is on Guantanamo Bay. I seriously doubt that he's being tortured, which is too bad.
He should be left there.
And the remaining Khadrs should be deported.
The hate Canada. But they like the welfare. And they like wasting our court system with vexatious lawsuits. |
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Topcat
Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2008
Posts: 63
Location: NYC
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| Leisure Suit Larry wrote: | Since I'm leaving soon, I gotta tell you this: I'm glad that Khadr is on Guantanamo Bay. I seriously doubt that he's being tortured, which is too bad.
He should be left there.
And the remaining Khadrs should be deported.
The hate Canada. But they like the welfare. And they like wasting our court system with vexatious lawsuits. |
Have fun in Afganistan, they could have used you a long time ago. |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Leisure Suit Larry wrote: | Since I'm leaving soon, I gotta tell you this: I'm glad that Khadr is on Guantanamo Bay. I seriously doubt that he's being tortured, which is too bad.
He should be left there.
And the remaining Khadrs should be deported.
The hate Canada. But they like the welfare. And they like wasting our court system with vexatious lawsuits. |
Dagmar-Oops-I-Mean-Larry has gone bye bye. I would have consulted with the other mods, but they don't seem to have been around lately, so ta Larry.
_________________
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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thwap
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4564
Location: Hamilton
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks TS. I'm pretty sure that we can live without his useless contributions.
[Even as an artifact, we already know that his ilk are stupid, so there's absolutely nothing to learn from him.]
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Man! I hate them fancy-lads! |
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Diane Demorney
Bazinga!
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 4746
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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For the record, I'm backing TS. on this. I've been very busy at work lately, and have acquired a new family via Heywood Floyd... long story. The girls are doing very well, btw, Heywood. R. has decided that behind my flat-screen monitor is the bestest place in the world for a snooze. And M. thinks my bed is her's. ALL my bed. 
Anyway, TS. has done an admirable job filling in for those of us mods who've been AWOL.
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Scissors cuts paper. Paper covers rock. Rock crushes lizard. Lizard poisons Spock. Spock smashes scissors. Scissors decapitates lizard. Lizard eats paper. Paper disproves Spock. Spock vaporizes rock. And as it always has, rock crushes scissors. |
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No Yards
Glutton for Punishment
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2944
Location: Toronto Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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I only wish that loser suite Larry could be treated to the same kind of "justice" he proposes for others.
Hopefully he's a total fraud and liar when he suggests he's an NDP supporter ... but ... given the recent history of actions by the NDP where they jut threw Muslim women and the non-traditionally-gendered under the bus, I am very worried that he may have actually been telling the truth.
_________________
I follow, but more importantly, respect the Golden Rule. I fully and completely respect your right to be 'done on to' as you would 'do on to' others. |
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thwap
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4564
Location: Hamilton
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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It's hard to know what to say about this: "'Deradicalizing' part of proposed Omar Khadr rehab"
So, crazy Kadhr was raised with a head full of religious mumbo-jumbo, and a murderous attitude against the West (backed, of course, by some genuine grievances).
Therefore, the beefy stooges who have held Kadhr on mind-bogglingly stupid "war crimes" charges for over five years, in inhuman conditions, ... these pigs who have murdered hundreds of thousands either through immense ignorance or for lust for oil, who have tortured, poisoned, destroyed, now presume that they can "rehabilitate" Kadhr, teach him not to be an "extremist," or a "radical."
Says one idiot:
| Quote: | | "Then you can turn the discussion around on them and put the Qur'an out on the table and then say, 'Well, look. Where in the Qur'an you find that it's OK to kill Christians and Jews?'" said Thomas Quiggin, Islamic radicalization expert and former Canadian intelligence officer. |
Yes, and where are the asterisks in the Ten Commandments, especially the one "Thou Shalt Not Kill"?
If anyone is creating "radical extremists" it's these filthy monsters.
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Man! I hate them fancy-lads! |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Certainly it looks more sensible, to the average person, than simply repatriating him so that the Khadrs can be reunited as one big happy "Al Qaeda family" again.
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ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, |
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