EnMasse

[Tehanu]

After a complaint to BC's Human Rights Tribunal about a polygamous Mormon group was dismissed, the attorney general is looking at filing criminal charges. The complaint alleged that BC was not doing enough to protect girls as young as 15 from sexual exploitation.

[anne cameron]

This situation has been an open secret for years. I'm not sure why at least three supposedly different political parties (Socred, LiEbral, NDP) have hemmmed and haaawed and done bugger nothing about it, there is ample evidence that girls have been taken back and forth across the border and married off to men old enough to be their grandpa's, evidence that uncles marry little girls they know to be their neices, and evidence of step-parents marrying girls they helped raise. Which, to my mind , is incest. But time and again, in spite of evidence, charges are not laid.

Recently, there has been a huge split in the congregational colony, and family members no longer have anything to do with each other because some follow the american who claimed to be the leader while others followed the local guy. However the american has been arrested by the FBI and isn't apt to be out and preaching any time soon so maybe that kerfuffle has imploded.

I see it as child sexual abuse and Wally Oppel needs to be ass kicked because for someone who claims this is a top priority he's taken a lot of time to get his thumb out of his bum.

I had some faint hope when Wally went political, his record as a judge was better than most, but...oh well...same old same old I guess.

[The Evil Twin]

[anne cameron]

It's absolutely puzzling how so many successive governments have managed to turn blind eyes to the obvious exploitation of female children.

In 1907 the federal government admitted that fifty per cent of all aboriginal children taken off to residential school died there. And generation after generation of kids were sent to those hell holes... certainly the government was quick to slam Doukhabour kids into New Denver and for years Jehovah Witnesses have had every level of welfare up their noses looking for any excuse at all to snatch kids...for years welfare workers would swoop down without warning on single moms to ensure there was no sign a male was sharing the home with her, the list of government interference goes on and on and on...but these frikken wing nuts seem to be more than merely tolerated, they almost seem to be protected and one does wonder why. Surely to Gawd the RCMP can lay charges...we shouldn't have to wait for the Attorney General to waken from his doze before this mess starts to be cleaned up.

I don't really mind that most of these women, who are little more than brood stock, are on welfare. Whatever else is going on the kids deserve to eat but it does stick in my craw that these men use the welfare system to underwrite their sexual behaviour because there's no way in heaven or hell a man can support a half dozen wives and two dozen offspring!

Be nice if we could vasectomize the patriarchs when the first plural wife gave birth! That wouldn't stop the fuck fest but it might do something to control the growing swarm.

[voice of the damned]

[anne cameron]

Okay, even granting the province might possibly use the worst damn prosecutors available and lose the case... what about transporting a minor across an international boundary for sexual purposes...what about carnal knowledge of a child...what about sexual abuse...what about the illegality of uncles "marrying" neices and fathering children...

and HOW COME there is no question of violation of religious beliefs when it comes to forcing Jehovah Witness children to have blood transfusions, taking JW children into the (dubious) care of the welfare? They managed to take Doukhabour children away from their families, put them in New Denver with a 13 ft fence separating them from their parents. They forced children from a religion which is strictly vegetarian to eat meat, they gave them instruction in a religion other than their own...

funny how we can kick the shit out of some people and not out of others.
Funny how as long as it's just girls and women being sexually exploited our hands are tied.
Funny how mainstream Mormons seem to reject these splinter group fundies.

SO how come Muslims can't have four wives each?
And how come genital mutilation is against the law here?

I call bullshit.

[Tehanu]

I call bullshit, too. It would be interesting and surprising to see if anti-bigamy legislation would stand up to a freedom of religion challenge. (And yes, I don't know of any religions that allow multiple husbands, so let's stick to polygamy not polyandery).

But the bigger issue is the children who are allegedly being forced into marriage.

[voice of the damned]

[Senor Magoo]

I have to wonder exactly what constitutes "polygamy" (or polygyny) in this context? Certainly, the disgusting old "elders" will be cavorting with multiple young women... that I get. But other than that, the only things marriage typically brings are legal rights (inheritance, divorce, etc.) that the state is certainly under no obligation to respect for wife #2, wife #3, etc.

In other words, any man is free to have sex with as many women as will have him, though only one can have the legal rights of a spouse. I don't see how the men of Bountiful can force Canada to treat wife #2 as a spouse, or wife #3 as a spouse, and so on.

And I would certainly agree that when adults are quite unashamedly having sex with 15 year olds, I wonder why those same adults aren't looking at statutory sexual assault charges. Isn't that the way it usually works??
_________________
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[voice of the damned]

[Senor Magoo]

[voice of the damned]

[anne cameron]

Interesting questions. For me, if Magoo runs an ad in every paper in the nation inviting women to join him for some well cooked meals and a bit of the old laugh'n'tickle I don't much give a damn.

However, if Magoo then has umptymump kids with these women, and the kids are all called This Magoo and That Magoo and Next Magoo and Max Magoo and the women all go on welfare to keep the groceries coming into the house so Magoo can cook (when he can stand on his feet between bedroom forays) I start to get a tad pissed off.

Whether or not the Poop of Rooms has shown up to bless unions.

Then if Magoo and these women start brainwashing these kids that multiplicity is the only way to get into Hebbin, that they will be given halo and wings only depending on how many git they produce...and Magoo's brother Bubba shows up to claim Chastity Magoo who is now twelve and the Poop of Rooms blesses her as Bubba's sixth wife and Chastity winds up a baby machine, and Magoo's next daughter Patience, on reaching the advanced age of eleven or twelve gets taken to Idaho to become wife seventeen of Grandpa Magiggle in exchange from Magiggle's twelve year old daughter by his thirteenth wife (they've run out of names down there so the kid is only called eightyfour) and the Poop of Rooms thinks that's all hunky dory. And then Chastity, who is now eighteen and has five kids runs away from the whole mad pack, makes it into town, claims sanctuary with her run-away aunt and says she never wanted to get married to Bubba but they told her she'd rot in hell if she didn't and by the way she wants her kids...then I want the frikken Horsemen to put down their donuts and go out and get Chastity's kids. Arrest Bubba for carnal knowledge of an unwilling child, and maybe manage to shoot Magoo in the back of the head like they did that laughing kid in the interior last year.

These kids are given very spotty education and only a very few chosen are allowed to go from the Bountiful school into grade eight or so in town. The rest are undereducated, virtually unemployable, and thus denied much choice in life even if they should manage to run away rather than be fucked before they're even fertile.

I'm not a Christian so I don't really give a fat rodent's butt end what brand of whatever they claim to follow. Now that wotzisname has been picked up by the FBI I expect good old portly Winston will do what turds do in a septic tank and rise to the top. He's got a pack of wives and a swarm of kids and thinks it is all very funny that people outside object. He seems to have huge money but his wives are all pulling in hoofare. Except for the ones who work at menial jobs in town and go to work looking as if they just stepped off the wagon train. And even that wouldn't gripe me too much, other than the abuse to the system which never seems to have money for those who truly need it but plenty to subsidize this bullshit. But Winston has admitted on TV he has married girls as young as fourteen.

Personally I'd like to cut his nuts off but I'm sure there are folk would think me violent and out of control. And others who will sharpen the razor for me.

Polygamy doesn't stick in my throat. Brainwashing does, transporting a minor across borders and state lines for the purposes of sex does, and I object strenuously to paying a police force to sit with their heads up their basic fundaments, and even more strenuously object to the attorney general of a province rambling on in circles about bogs all rather than pull out his thumb and do something.

But it's girls and women who are getting fucked, fucked over, fucked up and fucked to a fine fare thee well so of course it doesn't matter.

[Tehanu]

The BC government has appointed a special prosecutor to review charges against the Bountiful group.

[voice of the damned]

[Tehanu]

I keep forgetting that the Globe has a sign-up thingie (and after a few days articles go behind the subscription wall). No, it didn't say anything about what improper influence might mean ...

[anne cameron]

I think they're referring euphemistically to the possibility there will be heavy pressure put on the girls and younger wives to deny that there had been any conditioning or brainwashing involved...

Wally Oppal was on TV last night trying to "explain" and "clear up misconceptions" while as good as wringing his hands and stammering.

Betcha if this was a Muslim enclave there'd be a lot less hesitation and b.s. about religious freedom and rah rah rah.

Hana Gartner has done a couple of quite good doc's on Bountiful.

[Tehanu]

Well, the BC Attorney General says there's not enough evidence to lay sexual assault charges in the Bountiful case.

[Tehanu]

Watching a documentary on Global right now, about how the fundamentalist Mormon church (Fundamentalist Church of the Latter Day Saints) of which Bountiful is a part, affects young men in their polygamous society. It's called Polygamy's Lost Boys.

Interesting and depressing stuff. Pretty disjointed documentary, though. And while sure, it was about the impact on the young men, they didn't really touch at all on the issue of female children being married/raped.

What I didn't know is that unlike the RCMP, the FBI has been quite successful in going after the leader of the American branch of the FCLDS, Warren Jeffs for sexual offenses.

[voice of the damned]

[voice of the damned]

It's 4:00 AM over here, and I'm not gonna start reading this tonight, but it looked interesting and relevant to the topic at hand.

From Status Of Women Canada:

http://www.swc-cfc.gc.ca/pubs/pubspr/0662420683/200511_0662420683-2...

[voice of the damned]

From the Status Of Women report:

[voice of the damned]

Wikipedia on the Short Creek Raid...

[voice of the damned]

The Utah and Arizona Attorney-General's have produced a joint manual on dealing with domestic abuse in polygamous families. Slate has it archived.

http://www.slate.com/id/2174061/entry/2174062/

[voice of the damned]

Warren Jeffs has been found guilty.

[anne cameron]

I think the US isn't finished with this perv. And right now B.C. is supposed to be looking into the possibility of laying charges against some of the top crew at Bountiful.

I guess I wouldn't feel as negative if the women had any real choice in things but how can they have informed choice when they're as good as cloistered and brainwashed daily that the only way they will get to heaven is if they conform?

By me, if adult women prefer to share a man, well, hey, where does any of that impact me or involve me? But some of the TV documentary footage I've seen about Bountiful is really enraging. Kids who probably don't even fully understand "the birds and the bees" parroting the dogma of plurality...it's creepy-making.

[voice of the damned]

[Tehanu]

I didn't know Jeffs had built another compound in Texas ... pretty far-ranging tentacles.

[transplant]

[Tehanu]

Tee hee. Well, that too, probably. You should post that on that "Who needs glasses" thread.

[anne cameron]

There are things about this whole Jeffs-polygamy thing which really worry me. Jeffs has followers in Bountiful, B.C., and that has caused a huge split in the followers, some of whom are loyal to Jeff and some of whom are loyal to Winston Blackwell.

It's been known for decades that there was a polygamous colony in Bountiful, and each government, including the NDP, has chosen to do nothing at all about the many reports of forced marriage, incest, and child sexual abuse.

I think it was CTV did a documentary of "the boys of bountiful", kids with minimal literacy skills turfed out of the colony, often for no real reason at all. They wind up "in town", and are fish out of water, in a foreign culture, with no real employment chances. And there are stories and rumours of some who just vanished...

but investigation isn't energetic and charges don't get laid and when asked why the squirming and verbal wriggling of the Attorney general is almost comical, except it's so sad, really.

I think nobody wants to take this on and press charges because they're afraid the courts will decide there really is no basis for any law against polygamy. And if they lose that one, well...

And since it is girls and women who are most subjugated by the fundamentalist teachings of this group we can be sure little will be done.

It brings up, I think, the question of WHY we even pretend there's a law against polygamy. If everyone involved is of legal age, and if that's what they choose as a way of life, I don't see where any of it is my business.

It's when girls of thirteen are given no choice that I get a bit fraught. And when girls are forced into marriage with their own uncles and cousins, with old men who already have a dozen wives and sixty kids...but those concerns are something separate from "polygamy". That's wingnut sick! Polygamy doesn't have to be part of or lead to such abuses.

Obviously, no one wage earner is going to bring in enough $$ to support twenty children. Some of the wives get outside jobs but in some colonies the main source of income is welfare. Which means we're all supporting the lifestyle.

Which means I'd rather do that than cancel welfare because too many people who really need it would suffer.

We have long considered Canada to be a place where diversity is welcome, and I think most people really do believe that but we haven't really done a good job of examining what diversity really is , nor have we done much to protect the ones with least choice.

I do believe that if Bountiful, and other places like it, were Muslim, Sikh, Hindu or Buddhist compounds the arm of the law would get its finger out of it's arse.

[voice of the damned]

[Senor Magoo]

[fork]

Last weekend's G & M had a book review of:
THE SECRET LIVES OF SAINTS: Child Brides and Lost Boys in Canada's Polygamous Mormon Sect

By Daphne Bramham

The reviewer, Dawn Rae Downton:

[voice of the damned]

[voice of the damned]

[granny]

Since they said the women and children were "in imminent danger of physical abuse", sounds like there might be enough there to warrant plenty of criminal investigations, I hope.

To my knowledge, schools can be decertified, but more often there are attempts to 'work with them' to meet the requirements instead. The only time charges against guardians apply is when children are 'truant' (not 'captive').

I suppose if you decertified the school, then the kids would be 'truant'. Hmm.

However, it seems in this case the young woman blew the whistle. Kudos to her for courage, but where is she? She would be in great danger.

[anne cameron]

I guess there's a lot of desert around that place. Lots of room for unmarked graves. And no, I do not think that is over-reaction. Not with this bunch, followers of Warren Jeffs, who is really one very sick pup.

[voice of the damned]

[fork]

[Senor Magoo]

[Cartman]

[Cartman]

And there is also the concern that raising the age of consent might make abused people more reluctant to seek out information and help from authorities.

[fork]

[anne cameron]

Putting aside any question of polygamy, and ignoring the obvious truth that if this was Muslim, Sikh or any other non-Xian group engaged in polygamy the wheels would turn damn fast... but putting that aside it is still obvious that , in B.C. , at least, the government doesn't want to do anything.

Girls from Canada are taken over the border to be married to old geezers in the USA, and girls from the USA are brought to Canada to be handed over to old geezers up here...and it's against the US law to transport a female over state lines for sexual or immoral purposes...and to get welfare these folks have to register the births of their kids...and it isn't rocket science math to put 14 years here and one month there and figure that ten months ago this mom was thirteen and hubby is an old geezer and...

it could be done. But they aren't making any move to do any of it. And I do believe that it's because it's girls and women who are being most abused.

The stories told by women who have run away from Bountiful ought to be in and of themselves sufficient "evidence" for charges to be laid.

Winston Blackheart laughed and admitted that he just might have married some underage girls, but yuk yuk he hadn't really checked their birth certificates, har har.

Oh he's a jolly old soul is Winston.

I really don't give a hoot in hell if a woman has six husbands or a man has six wives. I don't care if a woman has six wives and a man has six husbands, either. I do, however, prefer and even insist that all concerned be adults, with free will.

I mean it's not as if there are any horses out in the streets to be frightened any more.

It's the oppression, the abuse, and the lack of choice sticks sideways in my throat.

[Cartman]

[voice of the damned]

[voice of the damned]

[Rufus Polson]

The Bountiful thing ain't about age of consent. It's about exploitation by people in positions of authority, which current law bans regardless of "age of consent" laws.

[voice of the damned]