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elmateo
sleepy.
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 4978
Location: socialist corner, ottawa
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 Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Rufus Polson wrote: | Venezuela did really pass some laws with respect to media conduct recently. These laws are more or less the kind of stuff we and the US and pretty much everyone else already had. You know, not supposed to have obscenity on the kids' shows, not supposed to advocate criminal behaviour on the air, blah blah blah. Definitely not as obtrusive as, say, the American FCC as near as I can make out. But yes, they do limit the freedom of TV stations to act like complete dickheads in ways they didn't previously. Just, you know, not any more than anyone else does.
Incidentally, I've read that these "decrees" can not only be overturned by a people's referendum, the house can vote to get rid of them too. In this case it's pretty unlikely that they would because Chavez' party controls a massive majority. But still, in institutional terms these are hardly what I would think of as "decrees" or "ruling by decree" if parliament can overturn them. And of course like any other legislation they have to adhere to the Constitution, so the courts could strike them down if they violated any rights. |
Stop trying to bring in a comparative politics analysis. You are to do as the media, accept the spin language of a few statements and assume its true. None of this looking at what the laws actually do and then comparing them to what goes on under different names in 'democratic' countries. Firstly you can't compare those countries, because we already know Venezuela is NOT a democracy, therefore any attempt on their part to have laws similar to ours is in fact an authoritarian swing for the worst, not more democratic. Like having that huge constitution, and printing it up in book form and distributing it to the people to read - all so people have to read the propaganda of calling the country the "Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela". Only authoritarians force their people to accept their propaganda, in paper form to be hung in every school outlining the basic articles of everyone's rights and freedoms... |
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Amy Grace
The space-age robot
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 774
Location: The Drive
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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BBC: Caracas rallies over TV closure
Anyone know anything about this? I don't know what the TV station was up to/funded by or anything. |
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No Yards
Glutton for Punishment
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2944
Location: Toronto Ontario
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | because we already know Venezuela is NOT a democracy |
Really? How do you figure? They held elections that were internationally monitored and declared legal.
It's as damn sight more "democratic" than the USA ... although that may not be saying much.
ETA: Sorry, re-read your post more carefully ... finally saw that invisible "winky face".
Last edited by No Yards on Mon May 28, 2007 3:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Factotum
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 238
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| No Yards wrote: | | Quote: | | because we already know Venezuela is NOT a democracy |
Really? How do you figure? They held elections that were internationally monitored and declared legal. |
There's more to democracy than simply holding elections and getting 50%+1 of the vote.
The television closures really are a mess. Earlier reports mentioned that he had the army out as a show of force prior to seizing the stations and shutting them down.
Al Jazeera - Caracas rally backs opposition TV
Reuters - Venezuela court orders troops to take TV station
| Quote: | | Police stand in front of Venezolana de Television (VTV) station during a student's demonstration to support Radio Caracas TV (RCTV) in Caracas May 25, 2007. RCTV goes off the air on Sunday night. Dozens of armored cars and military vehicles filed down the highways of Caracas in a slow-moving cavalcade on Friday, making a show of force before the controversial closure of an opposition television station. President Hugo Chavez's decision to close the RCTV television channel, which he accuses of backing a 2002 coup against him, has prompted international condemnation and several demonstrations. (REUTERS/Christian Veron) |
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sparqui
Dog tired
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 5152
Location: Winnipeg
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No Yards
Glutton for Punishment
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2944
Location: Toronto Ontario
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There's more to democracy than simply holding elections and getting 50%+1 of the vote. |
Certainly ... so maybe you could enlighten us on what is happening there that doesn't happen in a democracy?
RCTV is no defender of democracy, as was pretty evident before, during, and after the attempted coup ... now they are complaining that their enemy-of-the-state asses which participated in a coup attempt are losing their license to broadcast (over the public air waves, but can still broadcast on cable and satellite) in a democracy? Pssst, they should be in prison.
And funny how this undemocratic Venezuela is still going to hear the case in the courts to determine if the non-renewal of the stations license is legal (hell, don't other democracies, even Canada and the USA, have bodies that license public airwaves, and can decide to not renew a license when it comes due? Does that make Canada and the USA non democracies?)
If there were an attempted coup in Canada, and a media outlet was found to have participated in that coup attempt, or even just supported the lead up to it, and the actual coup itself after it happened ... what do you think should be the proper way to deal with such an anti democratic media outlet? |
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bshmr
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 4004
Location: Central USA, Earth
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:55 am Post subject: |
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Surely, earlier in this thread, someone showed that the offending TV station was part of an USAn-dominated international media venture group and had principles in the failed coup.
The opposition 'used to be' characterized as most of the 20% NOT impoverished and half of those living abroad. BTW, the monied tended to be colonial descendents or immigrees of that strain. |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If there were an attempted coup in Canada, and a media outlet was found to have participated in that coup attempt, or even just supported the lead up to it, and the actual coup itself after it happened ... what do you think should be the proper way to deal with such an anti democratic media outlet? |
If this 'coup' were to force Harper from office, I suspect many folks here would 'deal with' the media outlet by proclaiming them Heroes of the Revolution.
Meanwhile, I'm loving that the station is going to be replaced by a state-run station. State-run news has super optics!
"This just in! Chavez' popularity now approaching 110%! New extended term of office hailed as 'magnificent idea' by the people!"
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Factotum
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 238
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| bshmr wrote: | | Surely, earlier in this thread, someone showed that the offending TV station was part of an USAn-dominated international media venture group and had principles in the failed coup. |
Then arrest those who were responsible, rather than shut down (sorry; seize with military force) the last private television station in the country.
| No Yards wrote: | | Certainly ... so maybe you could enlighten us on what is happening there that doesn't happen in a democracy? |
For just one example - the constant efforts to blur the lines between Chavez, his party, and the Venezuelan state.
You think Harper's insistence that the civil service parrot his "Canada's New Government" slogan was bad? What about when state services are delivered dressed up in party colours, as the medical clinics and Mercal grocery stores are? Unless you're telling me you wouldn't mind seeing Stephen Harper's picture on the wall (perhaps along with his buddy George Bush) next time you have to see the doctor?
| The New Republic wrote: | | Aside from the campaign centers . . . government-subsidized supermarkets hung campaign posters--one of which oddly featured Chávez with Iranian President Muhammad Khatemi--next to bags of cheap rice and oil . . . Community centers known as "missions" that provide free health care and teach people how to read displayed banners, one of which read, "They will not come back," an implicit reference to the oligarchy and former governments. |
All in all, what he's doing isn't substantively different from what countless Latin American Caudillos have done before him. Or, for an example closer to home, picture Newfoundland in the 1950's and 1960's. Sure, most everything is on the up-and-up in a "50%+1" sort of way, but not really anything to aspire to. |
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Caissa
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 1146
Location: Saint John
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Chavez has become a dictator. The only really debate is whether we like his form of dictation or not. For example, I like Castro and loath Mugabe, both men are essentially dictators. |
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elmateo
sleepy.
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 4978
Location: socialist corner, ottawa
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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How is Chavez a dictator? He just won an election last year with a large majority of the vote. Parties that support him dominate the congress. Both occurred through free and fair elections (the US couldn't even get the OAS to cock-up a story about fraud).
The Prime Minister of Canada still has more power than Chavez does - we just pretend he doesn't wield it and turn a blind eye.
Another state television station may not be "great" (what is the CBC or the BBC? OMG the Canadian government has RDC too !! Facists!!) but honestly what is inherently good about a private television channel? Do private citizens not have their own interests as well? Why should we assume that government automatically is bad and private is good?
Oh and by the way, has anyone seen the latest update on Al Jazeera tv? I can't seem to get it on my satellite dish... Or the KKK channel for that matter. |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Chavez has become a dictator. The only really debate is whether we like his form of dictation or not. For example, I like Castro and loath Mugabe, both men are essentially dictators. |
Then, after cheering dictatorship out of one side of our mouths, and vilifying dictatorship out of the other, the next debate should be "The Left and Dictatorship: can it ever get its credibility back, and how?"
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skeptikool
*BANNED*
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 1758
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Venezuela is under siege. It will have its traitorous sell-outs to Uncle Sam.
As far as choice of dictator? I tend toward the benign variety. I'd gladly accept one controlling the auto industry on behalf of the environment. |
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sparqui
Dog tired
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 5152
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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The mainstream media is giving fair and balanced coverage as they always do when it comes to Venezuela -- sure, whatever...
| Quote: |
Documents Reveal U.S. Effort to Influence Venezuelan Journalists
Saturday, May 26, 2007
By: Chris Carlson - Venezuelanalysis.com
Credit: El Universal
Caracas, May 26, 2007 (venezuelanalysis.com)— Several major Venezuelan journalists have received all-expenses paid trips to the U.S. for courses in an apparent effort of the U.S. State Department to influence the media in Venezuela, according to recently released documents. The Venezuelan-American attorney Eva Golinger, who released the information yesterday in a press conference in Caracas, also revealed evidence of a destabilization plan against the Chavez government to take place this weekend.
Golinger is the author of The Chavez Code, which documents U.S. funding of opposition groups and U.S. involvement in the 2002 coup attempt.
Under a program named International Business Leadership Program, many Venezuelan journalists, mostly from the opposition media, but also some from the Venezuelan government, have received "scholarships" from the U.S. government to attend training courses during the years 2001-2005.
Some of the most recognized opposition journalists of the country have participated according to the documents, including Miguel Angel Rodriguez of RCTV, who received more than six thousand dollars for his participation in 2003, and Maria Fernanda Flores of Globovision among others, according to the documents obtained by Eva Golinger through the U.S. Freedom of Information Act...
...Golinger also presented evidence of a destabilization plan for this Saturday, showing a flyer calling for people to come into the streets and march in the morning hours of Saturday, May 26th. According to the attorney, the campaign is designed by Freedom House, a U.S. organization dedicated to non-violent resistance.
Freedom House, headed by Peter Ackerman, has been involved in other countries and other campaigns to overthrow regimes such as Serbia and the Ukraine. According to Golinger, the flyers circulating in Caracas have the logo of a clenched fist, the same logo used in the campaigns in other countries such as Serbia, Georgia, and the Ukraine.
Golinger also made reference to the fact that leaders from the Serbian campaign, and people from the Center for Applied Nonviolent Action and Strategies (Canvas) have been involved with the Venezuelan opposition and have given trainings about nonviolent resistance inside Venezuela. According to the webpage of Canvas, Venezuela is one of three nations in which the resistance strategies are being used.
Golinger said that she found the presence of these programs to be "worrying" in light of the tense relations between the United States and Venezuela, as well as the aggressive media atmosphere in Venezuela in recent years. |
ETA: http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=2309
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps the Venezualans need to "train" a few US journalists....
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"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin |
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Factotum
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 238
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Caissa wrote: | | Chavez has become a dictator. The only really debate is whether we like his form of dictation or not. For example, I like Castro and loath Mugabe, both men are essentially dictators. |
"He may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch", eh?
| elmateo wrote: | | Another state television station may not be "great" (what is the CBC or the BBC? OMG the Canadian government has RDC too !! Facists!!) but honestly what is inherently good about a private television channel? Do private citizens not have their own interests as well? Why should we assume that government automatically is bad and private is good? |
Wow.
Show of hands - who's for pulling the plug on Enmasse and instead posting on some government-run internet forum?
Come on, it'd be just as good, right? Who needs a private media anyways? |
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The Evil Twin
Stoned Immaculate
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 3746
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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To no one's real surprise, the spineless US Dumbocrats led by wannabe presidents Obama and Clintoon II have voted to condemn Venezuela:
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/52437/
| Quote: | While many people were gnashing their teeth over the Congressional decision to fund the escalation of the war in Iraq without any meaningful restriction, the Senate, led by Senators Dodd, Clinton, and Obama, did something very bizarre. It passed a resolution introduced by Dodd and Lugar denouncing Venezuela for not renewing the license of a TV station that actively supported the 2002 military coup against the democratically elected government.
This continues a pattern for these Senators. I guess they feel that every time they do something to convince Democratic primary voters that they really oppose Bush's foreign policy (in this case, voting against the supplemental,) they feel they have to do something else to convince the Washington foreign policy establishment that they really support the Empire. Maybe they figure it's a freebie. Maybe they think that, unlike many places where the U.S. government sticks its nose, Venezuela is a truly independent country, so they can say nonsense things about Venezuela without causing much harm in the world. But such a resolution is not totally harmless. It hurts the cause of human rights, by giving grist to those in the world who ask, when some American politician talks about human rights somewhere, "How much oil does that country produce?"
Some of the bigfoot human rights groups also played a nefarious role in this affair. Human Rights Watch, Reporters Without Borders, and the Committee to Protect Journalists also trashed the Venezuelan government's decision not to renew the license.
My colleague Patrick McElwee contacted these groups and asked them a simple question: if this had happened in the U.S., would the station have had its license renewed? None would give a direct answer, as Patrick documents here.
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(bold mine)
And that is the million dollar question. If there were an attempted coup in the US or Canada and either say CNN or CTV supported the plotters.....how would that station be looked at by authorities once the coup fizzled? I'm thinking "security certificates" and "indefinate detention" in Canada and long stays in GITMO in the US case. 
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al-Qa'bong
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 6031
Location: A monistic vulgarity in which nobility and wisdom have been exchanged for a pale belief in progress
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | You think Harper's insistence that the civil service parrot his "Canada's New Government" slogan was bad? What about when state services are delivered dressed up in party colours, as the medical clinics and Mercal grocery stores are? Unless you're telling me you wouldn't mind seeing Stephen Harper's picture on the wall (perhaps along with his buddy George Bush) next time you have to see the doctor?
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Or having Preston Manning host "This I Believe" on CBC.
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"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl |
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Hephaestion
Deeply Shallow
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 24243
Location: Where the Wild Things Are...
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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Get real. If anyone else was to try the same "destabilization" tactics within the US that they routinely pull on other countries, they would be bombed into the stone age. "The Decider" (that's 'Little Boots' to you) is far more of a fascistic demagogue than Chavez will ever be.
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"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Who needs a private media anyways? |
Only us, and the USA, since we have "bad" governments that we need to criticize, and try to get rid of. It's our fundamental right!
The Venezuelans should be happy to have such a perfect government that they don't need a private media.
| Quote: | | If there were an attempted coup in the US or Canada and either say CNN or CTV supported the plotters.....how would that station be looked at by authorities once the coup fizzled? |
I would assume the organizers would face the penalty of law. Right?
I don't think the current government would sit on it for 5 years, then decide to pull the plug and replace that station with HarperTV.
Is there a reason, if the station or its owners are guilty of treason, that they weren't charged and tried for it?
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al-Qa'bong
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 6031
Location: A monistic vulgarity in which nobility and wisdom have been exchanged for a pale belief in progress
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | elmateo wrote:
Another state television station may not be "great" (what is the CBC or the BBC? OMG the Canadian government has RDC too !! Facists!!) but honestly what is inherently good about a private television channel? Do private citizens not have their own interests as well? Why should we assume that government automatically is bad and private is good?
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Wow.
Show of hands - who's for pulling the plug on Enmasse and instead posting on some government-run internet forum?
Come on, it'd be just as good, right? Who needs a private media anywayssic? |
Wow, a disciple of the magoolian method of first distorting, then hyperbolically extrapolating from the distortion.
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"The purpose of government is to protect the weak from the powerful" Hammurabi
"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl |
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Factotum
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 238
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| al-Qa'bong wrote: | | Or having Preston Manning host "This I Believe" on CBC. |
Preston Manning has not been a Member of Parliament for five years - seven years since he lead the Reform/CRAP/Conservatives/whatever they were calling themselves at the time.
But hey, if all you can say in response is "b-b-but Preston Manning does it too" . . . well, I'm not quite sure you're doing your side much of a favour here  |
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ronb
mocker
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2627
Location: Blackroof country, no gold pavement, tired starling
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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Why, again, am I supposed to shed a tear for JuntaTV? Because they were privately owned, and therefore inherently better than public control of the airwaves, regardless of how they behaved? Or is it that the press is only free to argue for the privileges of the oligarchs, as soon as the airwaves are returned to the people, it's a SERIOUS problem. Argh, democratic control of the airwaves! Tyrant!
Fuck it, let's just let the Berlusconi's of the world take over. If you're ruthless enough to create a media monopoly, you're ruthless enough to run the country too.
| Quote: | | Why should we assume that government automatically is bad and private is good? |
Apparently just because. |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Why, again, am I supposed to shed a tear for JuntaTV? |
The principled belief that no government should silence a media outlet for the sole reason that that outlet disagrees with them?
Or, if that isn't enough, how about the fact that you most certainly would shed a tear if it was Bush or Harper pulling the plug on some station that had been on the air for years, and oh ya, just happened to be critical of the government?
Or maybe the belief that treason and other crimes should be tried in a courtroom, when they happen, not punished outside of it 5 years later? That individuals should (perhaps) go to jail for treason, but not media outlets?
There are some pretty good reasons. Take your pick, or take 'em all.
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No Yards
Glutton for Punishment
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2944
Location: Toronto Ontario
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Factotum wrote: | | For just one example - the constant efforts to blur the lines between Chavez, his party, and the Venezuelan state. |
An example? That's an assertion without an example.
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You think Harper's insistence that the civil service parrot his "Canada's New Government" slogan was bad? What about when state services are delivered dressed up in party colours, as the medical clinics and Mercal grocery stores are? Unless you're telling me you wouldn't mind seeing Stephen Harper's picture on the wall (perhaps along with his buddy George Bush) next time you have to see the doctor? |
If Harper and Bush were to put their portraits in publicly funded medical clinics and Mercal grocery stores, then that would be a lie because they would have nothing at all to do with providing such services... if they wanted to hang their portraits on the tombstones of our dead soldiers, in private clinics, or over the grates on which homeless people sleep, then I say "Go for it"as they can certainly claim much responsibility for those "institutions". |
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ronb
mocker
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2627
Location: Blackroof country, no gold pavement, tired starling
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The principled belief that no government should silence a media outlet for the sole reason that that outlet disagrees with them? |
Silence - lol - I guess the UK must be about the harshest dictatorship in the world what with their decades long "silencing" of the private broadcast media.
Sole reason. Just happened to disagree. All very amusing under the circumstances. The elected government of Venezuela declined to renew the license of a station five years after it participated in an attempt to violently overthrow that legitimately elected goverment and install a military junta - a government that has since been re-elected with an even larger mandate and a broadcaster that has not budged one iota from its support of the coup attempt or its ongoing attempts to destabilise the government.
Gee, maybe, just maybe, this particular press outlet was not living up to its public service mandate? I haven't checked the CRTC guidelines recently, but I can't imagine that 24 hour a day non-stop Maoist violent insurrection TV is considered to be in the public interest here. Why would the Venezuelan government be expected to tolerate a 24 hour all-Fascist propaganda outlet?
The station clearly violated all standards of media and journalistic ethics, why on earth is anyone - let alone the US Democratic leadership, speaking out on its behalf? I'm guessing Hilary would've been on her hind legs bleating for Goebbel's beleagured press barons during the postwar as well. Fair's fair, after all. How dare you silence the Nazi Party! Their backers have every right to keep right on broadcasting! Just a monor disagreement, after all.
And here you are forgetting your absolute favourite panacea: hey, why not let the Venezuelan people decide whether they support this or not at the ballot box! In the meantime we'll keep an eye on their public TV networks for troubling signs if Pravda/Fox-itis and protest THAT if it ever shows up. Or are Venezuelans too stupid to notice that if it creeps in? |
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elmateo
sleepy.
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 4978
Location: socialist corner, ottawa
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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They didn't get their license renewed Magoo... Their license was coming up for renewal...
I have yet to see why private media stations have an inherent right and are inherently good. Apparently, a millionaires "freedom of speech" is worth millions of times more because he can afford it. At least in Venezuela the people can vote for or against Chavez and his governments policies. So public government, exercising the public rights over public airways in the legal manner outlined by the public laws is not democratic. Allowing a a private millionaire's television station continue to insight violence within the state... necessary for democracy.
I am sorry but thats an ugly definition of democracy. Democracy for the rich, when the poor try to exercise their democratic rights however, it is called fascism. MacPherson was right about democracy, liberals like the concept up until the point it actually becomes a real democracy, and then they cower and throw fits over the "tyranny and oppression". Tyranny and oppression they sought to exploit while they pretended to play the game of "democracy". |
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al-Qa'bong
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 6031
Location: A monistic vulgarity in which nobility and wisdom have been exchanged for a pale belief in progress
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But hey, if all you can say in response is "b-b-but Preston Manning does it too" . . . well, I'm not quite sure you're doing your side much of a favour here |
Yeah, I suppose I could follow your lead in presenting a strong argument and just make things up.
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"The purpose of government is to protect the weak from the powerful" Hammurabi
"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl |
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No Yards
Glutton for Punishment
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2944
Location: Toronto Ontario
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | | Quote: | | Why, again, am I supposed to shed a tear for JuntaTV? |
The principled belief that no government should silence a media outlet for the sole reason that that outlet disagrees with them? |
That's NOT the "sole reason". Treason against a democratically elected government also plays a "small part".
| Quote: |
Or, if that isn't enough, how about the fact that you most certainly would shed a tear if it was Bush or Harper pulling the plug on some station that had been on the air for years, and oh ya, just happened to be critical of the government? |
For just being critical of the government or participating in a coup? Let's not just sweep an illegal coup of a democratically elected government under the rug, ok?
| Quote: | | Or maybe the belief that treason and other crimes should be tried in a courtroom, when they happen, not punished outside of it 5 years later? That individuals should (perhaps) go to jail for treason, but not media outlets? |
Both can happen. If this were simply a case of a brutal left wing anti democratic government wanting to strong arm the right wing media then why wait the 5 years for the license to expire? Why didn't they do it right away?
Yes, how come Chavez didn't shut them down right away? Like how the temporary junta government did during the 48 hour 2002 coup to channel 8 (a TV station that wasn't entirely anti-democracy,) a shutdown that was warmly applauded at the time -- by RCTV.
Some other interesting stats:
| Quote: | | According to an official June 2006 report from the Venezuelan Ministry of Communications and Information, the vast majority of Venezuelan mass media (TV and Radio channels, newspapers) are today in the hands of private owners. In particular, as far as the television sector is concerned, 90% of the market is in the hands of 4 private TV companies: RCTV, Globovision, Televen and Venevision. The owner of RCTV, Marcel Granier, owns another 40 TV stations throughout Venezuela (most of them of course are local TV channels). To be accurate 79 out of a total of 81 TV channels (or 97%) are private; 706 out of 709 Radio channels (or 99%) and all 118 newspapers are in private hands. |
Seems to me that if Chavez is a strong armed dictator intent on destroying private media, he's doing a damn poor job of it.
| Quote: |
There are some pretty good reasons. Take your pick, or take 'em all. |
Actually, there wasn't even ONE good reason in all your nonsense. |
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Caissa
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 1146
Location: Saint John
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Has Chavez ever taken part in a coup? |
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No Yards
Glutton for Punishment
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2944
Location: Toronto Ontario
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Was Mandela a terrorist? |
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sparqui
Dog tired
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 5152
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Good gawd, did some of you actually bother to read the article linked to. There are OTHER private broadcasters other than RCTV -- Globovision for example is still licensed to broadcast.
| Quote: | | The State Department gave special attention to the Venezuelan news channel Globovisión, which they believe to be "the most influential channel" and to have the most positive coverage of the United States. The State Department sought a special relationship with this particular news network, and especially with one important journalist Maria Fernanda Flores. |
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=2309
And in terms of real democratic media, community radio is probably one of the best mediums for representing the people's POV as opposed to the corporate POV of our mainstream private media. An older article about the growth in community radio in Venezuela.
Growing Movement of Community Radio in Venezuela
Monday, Dec 26, 2005
By: Sujatha Fernandes - ZNet
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1637
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ronb
mocker
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2627
Location: Blackroof country, no gold pavement, tired starling
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Has Chavez ever taken part in a coup? |
Why yes he did. And he was arrested and sent to jail for it too. And then he was popularly elected in the most legitimate elections in his country's history.
Was Chavez a private broadcaster? I'm not quite following you here. Are we also pining for the return of the legitimate government of South Africa? |
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Factotum
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 238
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| No Yards wrote: | | An example? That's an assertion without an example. |
As inconvenient as it would be for you to acknowledge it, yeah, I gave you a pretty good example there.
| No Yards wrote: | | If Harper and Bush were to put their portraits in publicly funded medical clinics and Mercal grocery stores, then that would be a lie because they would have nothing at all to do with providing such services. |
I see.
So if the current government, under Stephen Harper, did enact [*insert feel-good progressive program of your choice*], you'd have no problem with him dressing it up in Conservative Party blue, plastering his face on the wall and all the while presenting it -not- as a service of the Canadian state but a product of his own benevolence (while also using it as an occasional campaign headquarters)?
Or, are you simply saying that patronage and corruption is totally O.K. as long as it's your side that is doing it?
Be honest now. At least Caissa can admit that their view on dictators hinges completely on what kind of dictating they do - whether it's the "good" kind or the "bad" kind.
While I wouldn't call Chavez a dictator just yet; Venezuelan democracy isn't all it's cracked up to be - it is polarising, illiberal and set-up for a really nasty mess once Chavez is gone. |
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No Yards
Glutton for Punishment
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2944
Location: Toronto Ontario
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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I'd have no problem with Harper "dressing it up in Conservative Party blue, plastering his face on the wall and all the while presenting it -not- as a service of the Canadian state but a product of his own benevolence" as much as Chavez is doing ....
I can't think of a single government that doesn't take credit for their programs ... and if hanging a portrait of the leader of your country is wrong (and I don't particularly like it myself) then the USA must be the worst offender in the world since the death of Mao .... speaking of which, do you have examples of Chevez doing any of what you are claiming? |
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ronb
mocker
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2627
Location: Blackroof country, no gold pavement, tired starling
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Corruption is it now? That's rich. |
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Factotum
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 238
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| No Yards wrote: | | . . . speaking of which, do you have examples of Chevez doing any of what you are claiming? |
For No Yards and other selective-readers out there, a repeat:
| The New Republic wrote: | | Aside from the campaign centers . . . government-subsidized supermarkets hung campaign posters--one of which oddly featured Chávez with Iranian President Muhammad Khatemi--next to bags of cheap rice and oil . . . Community centers known as "missions" that provide free health care and teach people how to read displayed banners, one of which read, "They will not come back," an implicit reference to the oligarchy and former governments. |
There was also a story in the Star last year ("Poor are Fed by Chavez's Vanity") describing the Mercals, but I can't find it at the moment.
EDIT: you are in luck:
| The Toronto Star wrote: | The centrepieces of Chavez's social revolution are the clinics in the barrios, clean two-storey brick structures with second-floor apartments for the Cuban doctors.
In the waiting area are posters backing Chavez and pictures of Chavez and Cuban leader Fidel Castro embracing. The doctors' program will now be expanded to Bolivia. New President Evo Morales agreed to sign on when he met Chavez and Castro in Havana late last month. Nurse Carmen Hernandez says the doctors can treat up to 40 patients a day, and will attend emergencies day or night.
. . .
At Chavez's chain of Mercal subsidized supermarkets, staples such as
chicken, rice, pasta, milk and cooking oil can be purchased at substantial
discounts.
"It is working," one diplomat said. "He is getting food to the poorest of the
poor."
The supermarkets look like campaign headquarters with grocery shelves.
One Chavez poster exhorts voters to choose him for "Seven More Years -
For Now." Another celebrates "The Motherland, Free and Glorious."
Even the packaging touts Chavez programs. Damelis Castro grabs a bag of lentils in a wrapper printed with Article 322 of the Venezuelan constitution, avowing the country's right to security and defence.
Mixing self-defence and cheap food is a blessing for Castro, who says it's a way for the people to understand what their government is doing. Shopping in a state-run supermarket with low prices can save 40 per cent, sometimes 50 per cent, on her weekly grocery bill, she says.
And who does she have to thank for that?
Her face brightens. "Hugo Chavez," says Castro, standing beneath a poster extolling the Venezuelan leader's virtues.
Chavez says Mercal is serving an average of 15.6 million people a month,
and provided 1.5 million tonnes of foodstuffs to Venezuelans last year. |
Like I said before, not much different than what every other Caudillo did before him. So yeah, Chavez can do the odd nice thing for poor Venezuelans, but don't pretend he's doing the concept of democracy in the country any great favours.
Last edited by Factotum on Mon May 28, 2007 8:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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elmateo
sleepy.
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 4978
Location: socialist corner, ottawa
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes because feeding the poor is just what caudillos do and it is all a vain attempt of the leader to endear themselves to the poor people. Stop feeding the poor Mr. Chavez, you are being too vain - stop trying to make poor people love you by providing the wealth of the state for their benefit... |
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Factotum
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 238
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| elmateo wrote: | | Yes because feeding the poor is just what caudillos do and it is all a vain attempt of the leader to endear themselves to the poor people. |
Caudillos identify their support base and throw patronage their way to keep them happy and supportive.
Ask yourself this question - with so much invested in setting himself up as the champion of the poor, what incentive does Hugo Chavez have to lift people out of poverty so that they are not dependent on Mercals or medical clinics in the barrios - which are just superficial, band-aid solutions for poverty? What happens to him if poverty were to decline and there were fewer poor people and a larger middle class?
The poor will vote for Hugo Chavez because it is in their immediate interest, and it is in his interest that they remain happy and that they remain plentiful. |
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ronb
mocker
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2627
Location: Blackroof country, no gold pavement, tired starling
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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The New Republic and Torstar think Chavez is suspect. You don't say. Quel suprise.
I can hardly fault Chavez for taking credit for the Missions. They are extremely popular, and he and his supporters created them in spite of intense ideological opposition.
I liked the bit about bags of rice and oil though. Some nice precise writing there. |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The elected government of Venezuela declined to renew the license of a station five years after it participated in an attempt to violently overthrow that legitimately elected goverment and install a military junta |
Fascinating that they had to wait 5 years.
Also fascinating that treason isn't tried in a court of law in Venezuela. The president just makes up a punishment he likes, apparently.
Seriously... does anyone know why the traitors weren't tried in court? Like, 5 years ago?? It would have made this look SO MUCH LESS like Chavez abusing power to punish his enemies.
| Quote: | | Gee, maybe, just maybe, this particular press outlet was not living up to its public service mandate? |
You mean the mandate of cheerleading for the current regime?
| Quote: | They didn't get their license renewed Magoo... Their license was coming up for renewal...
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I'd agree that that's not the same as being pulled from the air... entirely. But I think it's also reasonable to ask whether or not the licence would have been renewed had the station had the opposite political viewpoint. At this point it's pretty suspicious looking, no?
Believe it or not, one of my co-workers started discussing this with me earlier today, having no idea that I was involved in an online discussion of it, nor where I stood on the issue. Her take, without me needing to say a single thing: "total dictator, eh?".
Some people really feel a need to support Chavez no matter what. The rest of us can see that there's far more here than just "Oh, they didn't fulfil article 4, subsection 9b, paragraph 3 of their public mandate, so off the air they go! "
Also worth noting: Chavez didn't just refuse to renew their licence, he also stole their station. Oh ya. Mine now! That also looks really good to normal people.
| Quote: | That's NOT the "sole reason". Treason against a democratically elected government also plays a "small part".
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Huh. Again, here in the west, treason is a crime, to be tried in court. Guilty individuals can receive a variety of punishments. Stephen Harper doesn't simply decide, arbitrarily, to remove their livelihood.
| Quote: | | Let's not just sweep an illegal coup of a democratically elected government under the rug, ok? |
Come now! Where's your "smash the state" pin??
I guess it's an "illegal coup" when it's a left wing government on the hotseat, and it's a "glorious revolucion of the people" when it's a right wing government. Is that it?
| Quote: | | If this were simply a case of a brutal left wing anti democratic government wanting to strong arm the right wing media then why wait the 5 years for the license to expire? Why didn't they do it right away? |
Indeed. And I'd also ask, why wait the 5 years? If they're a genuine threat, make your case and stop them immediately. What kind of sense does it make to say "You illegally tried to overthrow the government, so we're going to let you keep broadcasting for another 5 years, then that's it!"
| Quote: | | Why yes he did. And he was arrested and sent to jail for it too. |
HUH?? What do you mean "arrested and sent to jail"? For treason? In Venezuela?
I thought the usual punishment was to have the government du jour pull a punishment out of their ass, 5 years later.
Chavez got a trial? Where he could defend himself? And, presumably, with a judge and stuff?
| Quote: | | Are we also pining for the return of the legitimate government of South Africa? |
Are South Africans out in the streets banging pots and pans and demanding it?
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No Yards
Glutton for Punishment
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2944
Location: Toronto Ontario
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Factotum wrote: | | For No Yards and other selective-readers out there, a repeat: |
That's fucking rich ... you're main complaint is that Chavez takes credit for his policies, you've ignored all the information given outlining that illegal activities of RCTV, the fact that they can still operate, just not on public airwaves, that denying renewal of public broadcast licenses is done on a regular basis in all kinds of democracies, including the USA and Britian, that Chavez enjoys very strong voters support, and you accuse others of being "selective-readers"???
OK, fine, Chavez is vain, you win that one ... now, let's get back to the argument over whether a TV station participating in the over throw of a legally elected popular democratic government, and that fully supported the closure of another TV station during the illegal coup (and not through some legal means, but simply with direct military force with no legal backing) has a case to make that it deserves to have its public license renewed.
What do you think? Maybe Chavez drinks expensive wine so RCTV deserves to have a license so it can call for the violent overthrow of the democratic government? |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | the fact that they can still operate, just not on public airwaves |
I forgot about that.
Really, that doesn't exactly strengthen any argument that this station broke a very important law and must be punished. Allowing them to continue broadcasting (just not in a way that the masses can access) while maintaining that it's really because they broke the law, and not because they're a personal threat to Hugo is a bit like letting a DUI driver keep his licence and drive on odd-numbered days. That'll send a loud and clear message that... well... what?
And again: why isn't treason worthy of a trial in Venezuela?
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thwap
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4564
Location: Hamilton
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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Personally, I worry about the tendency of Chavez to personalize what he's doing. And I wonder if what is being built can survive his passing.
But I don't think deciding not to renew the license of that television station was anything remotely approaching totalitarianism. I get a kick out of how those upper middle class employees can weep and wail as if they're being massacred, ... they remind me of those illegal Israeli "settlers" in the Gaza Strip having conniptions about having to move to some other stolen monster house in the West Bank, ... or they remind me of bush II and Tony Blair calling on someone else to renounce violence.
Regarding Chavez's hopes for a continued parade of impoverished supporters, ... I can't say I'm with you a hundred percent. Chavez also implemented literacy programs and land redistributions that give people a fighting chance at an independent life.
His poltiical machine learned from the coup that they had to empower the people to survive and that's what he's been doing.
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Man! I hate them fancy-lads! |
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Rufus Polson
Purple Library Guy
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 3483
Location: SFU and/or the college of Riddlemastery at Caithnard
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | | Quote: | | If there were an attempted coup in Canada, and a media outlet was found to have participated in that coup attempt, or even just supported the lead up to it, and the actual coup itself after it happened ... what do you think should be the proper way to deal with such an anti democratic media outlet? |
If this 'coup' were to force Harper from office, I suspect many folks here would 'deal with' the media outlet by proclaiming them Heroes of the Revolution.
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I find that a nasty and offensive statement which strikes me as violating the acceptable use policy. If I were a mod, you'd get a warning pronto. |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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Then tell a mod.
Tell them I suggested that a lot of people around here wouldn't mind seeing Harper ousted from office. Then tell them what part of the AUP that violates. Then lighten up some.
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No Yards
Glutton for Punishment
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2944
Location: Toronto Ontario
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | | Quote: | | the fact that they can still operate, just not on public airwaves |
I forgot about that.
Really, that doesn't exactly strengthen any argument that this station broke a very important law and must be punished. Allowing them to continue broadcasting (just not in a way that the masses can access) while maintaining that it's really because they broke the law, and not because they're a personal threat to Hugo is a bit like letting a DUI driver keep his licence and drive on odd-numbered days. That'll send a loud and clear message that... well... what?
And again: why isn't treason worthy of a trial in Venezuela? |
Maybe you should read the Supreme Court decision on this case.
While it is certainly true that the station participated in supporting the coup, that is not the "reason" they are losing their license.
If it were me, I'd probably send the whole lot of them packing, but since real politics and governments have to act a little less recklessly .... sometimes you have to give assholes enough rope to hang themselves.
| Quote: | | Believe it or not, one of my co-workers started discussing this with me earlier today, having no idea that I was involved in an online discussion of it, nor where I stood on the issue. Her take, without me needing to say a single thing: "total dictator, eh?". |
As for your friend how many sources she used to come to that determination? Like you I suspect it's the same sources that declared Iraq to be ready to drop an A-Bomb on Washington within 45 minutes. |
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ronb
mocker
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2627
Location: Blackroof country, no gold pavement, tired starling
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Seriously... does anyone know why the traitors weren't tried in court? Like, 5 years ago?? It would have made this look SO MUCH LESS like Chavez abusing power to punish his enemies. |
That's kind of funny. He didn't provoke a civil war by exacerbating the tensions in the post-coup chaos with heavy-handed reprisals, but he's the bad guy nonetheless, because he has allowed the coup's supporters to continue to use the private media to try to provoke another coup.
Again, why is the democratically elected goverment of Venezuela obligated to let a private broadcaster use the public airwaves to foment armed insurrection? What democracy in the world has EVER tolerated that?
I would say that the station was given enormous latitude to change its ways and conform to internationally accepted norms of journalistic integrity. They didn't, and they lost their license as a result. There certainly isn't any threat to freedom of the press in Venezuela right now, well except that the media still remains almost entirely in the hands of the oligarchs who apparently feel no compunction whatsoever in using their stations to trumpet their own ideology. Here is a country that has voted over 70% for a social democracy, and yet 90% of the broadcast media is vehemently, violently opposed to that ideology. How democratic is that?
As for Chavez "stealing" the station. Gimme a break. The airwaves are owned by the people. If his opponents wat to run on a platform of "give the oligarchs their station back" next election, I expect Chavez is willing to take that risk. As was noted, this is the station that celebrated the ACTUAL silencing of the coup's sole critical broadcast voice. Boohoo for them. |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As for Chavez "stealing" the station. Gimme a break. |
I'm referring to the hardware. The tangible property, not the frequency.
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Rufus Polson
Purple Library Guy
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 3483
Location: SFU and/or the college of Riddlemastery at Caithnard
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Caissa wrote: | | Chavez has become a dictator. The only really debate is whether we like his form of dictation or not. For example, I like Castro and loath Mugabe, both men are essentially dictators. |
What the fuck?
There may be room for debate about RCTV, whether dumping their license is a good thing or not. Mainly because lots of people aren't fully aware of the facts and to the extent that they are, are framing the situation goofily.
But there's no room for argument over whether Chavez is or has become a dictator. He isn't and he hasn't. It's that simple. There is no remotely usable definition of democracy that could exclude Chavez as a democratic leader. Any definition that could exclude Chavez would have to either mention Chavez by name or some irrelevant characteristic (e.g. democratic leaders cannot be Mestizo with some black ancestry, or democratic leaders cannot frequently wear red, or democratic leaders cannot have their own TV show), or would have to also exclude every other so-called democracy in the world. This nonsense is not helpful. Castro is a dictator, an oddly benevolent one with a great deal of consent from the governed, but a dictator nonetheless. That's fairly clear. Hugo Chavez is not a dictator by any remote stretch of the imagination; that is equally clear.
Chavez goes around winning free and fair elections. In the last parliamentary elections, the opposition had some problems with how the electoral authority was doing the elections and insisted on changes, threatening to pull out if they didn't get them; the electoral authority gave them what they wanted, so the elections were run according to opposition demands. The opposition then pulled out anyway, but it's hard for anyone to complain that the process was rigged or even unresponsive. Chavez also goes around letting the opposition do all kinds of dodgy things without jailing them, dealing more gently with protests than we do here, and so on and so forth.
As to RCTV--I would say that the process by which RCTV's license was not renewed, was short on, well, process. But that's because the 1987 (i.e. pre-Chavez) law governing such things is short on process. As I understand it, it basically just says that the executive can decide whether to renew a license. There is no real CRTC-like entity with a process, guidelines, standards and whatnot. Of course that means that whether the government decided NOT TO renew RCTV's license or decided TO renew RCTV's license (at the expense of other possibilities), no real standards-based process would have been followed.
So, given that there was no course of action that could have been followed which would satisfy our procedural desires, do I think it's better that RCTV's license was not renewed? Hell yeah. For one thing, people have missed a fact about RCTV's coverage--they didn't just support the coup in terms of propagandizing for it, they supported it operationally by bringing key coup figures on air as the coup was ongoing and letting them give instructions to backers who might be viewing as to where they should gather, what they should do--they literally acted as a communication channel for the coup. For another, they seem to have been guilty on an ongoing basis of spreading false news, not just during the coup, but consistently and regularly, and without supplementing it with anything resembling investigative reportage. We're not even talking "Fox news" here, we're talking flat out black propaganda, doctoring video, the whole nine yards. For a third, by all accounts they just suck generally--we're not talking about a news channel here, we're talking about a mostly-soaps channel, a lineup of utter fluff. I've read quite a bit about RCTV; even opposition blogs occasionally admit that it sucks rocks. It would be hard for any replacement not to make a general improvement of the quality of the Venezuelan airwaves, even leaving the specific politics out of it.
As to why they're not being jailed--well, Chavez seems in general to have been very gentle about that kind of thing. Most of the generals directly involved in the coup itself were only forcibly retired. The top architects of the coup were generally charged, put under house arrest, and allowed to piss off to Miami. The number of people against whom there is considerable publicly available evidence who never got charged with nothin' is large. And of course, if the media are managing to create a firestorm over non-renewal of a license, while the licensee continues to broadcast on cable, just imagine what the tsunami of protest would be like if he started putting media moguls in jail! I'd say what it comes down to is he doesn't need to, and it's not worth the trouble. But the "If they're guilty, why doesn't he clap them in irons?" question, phrased as an accusation (the logic being if they *were* guilty, he *would* clap them in irons) ignores the simple fact that Chavez' record involves clapping very few people in irons, and that many people in the past have been clearly guilty but not been clapped in irons. Heck, in most countries the guy who just lost the presidential election to Chavez wouldn't have been losing any presidential elections 'cause he would have been in jail. |
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