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Cartman
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 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:48 pm Post subject: Violence in sport |
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http://www.canada.com/topics/sports/story.html?id=598ccea1-8a0b-4cb...
| Quote: | The Philadelphia Flyers' rugged forward hopped on the ice at Madison Square Garden seconds after the opening faceoff Wednesday night and accepted an invitation to fight New York enforcer Colton Orr.
Only 21 seconds elapsed when the gloves came off and the punches flew. Orr caught Fedoruk with a hard right against his reconstructed left cheek and sent him down and out on his back.
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| Quote: | He returned to the lineup on Dec. 2 and has had five fights since removing his face shield before the all-star break in February.
"The surgeries he's had, he's got basically a titanium face," Flyers general manager Paul Holmgren said. "He's been a little tentative in his fighting when he has fought. It's got to take time, I think." |
Tentative in his fighting? WTF!? Basically, NHL teams hire players to fight in large part because it is entertaining. Fedoruk was called to play in order to fight. IMO, this is yet another example of how the NHL is an exploitive employer. The Flyers did not call him to play so that he would score goals, they called him to fight and they have these guys trained well enough that they do not need to tell them to fight. They know from a chance to play, a nod or a tap on the shoulder. McSorely has said that before he hit Brashear over the head with his stick, his coach said "You're up Mack" and he knew exactly what that meant.
I got a better idea. Why don't they teach Mike Tyson to skate? Now that would be good entertainment. Better yet, let's have cockfighting during intermissions. Nothing like a good cockfight to ensure family bonding. It will probably help toughen up your son too.
Yeah, sure, these guys agree to fight. They make that "choice" so to speak. I suppose that is true for beggars, prostitutes and sweat shop labourers too. This was yet another sick incident for the NHL. Individual players should not be taken to court, the NHL should be sued instead. |
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JPG
Pro-choice freedom-monger
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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These guys are fighters from the earliest parts of their careers, the juniors or even earlier. They make their way up on those credentials because that is their particular skill set. Plus it's not only the entertainment factor. It's a type of depth other sports don't need. All players talk about the virtues of fighting in hockey. Brett Hull, who by his own admission had 1.5 fights in his career supports it. Becasue in a sport where hitting is part of they game, you need guys who will make sure the other team will stay in line and not throw dirty hits against your stars, who more often than not are not tough guys.
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Norse of 60
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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Cartman
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Norse of 60 wrote: | Gretzky and Lemuiex who were both power forwards in the game and never (okay, rarely) fought have both come out on record as of late saying that the fights (specifically the deletion of the instigator rule) need to be back in the sport to help protect the stars.
Personally, I am a fan of a good scrap too and I'm not alone. If you are ever at an NHL game and compare the crowd noise during a fight versus after a goal, it is pretty obvious what the fans like. |
Both were protected stars though, so they never experienced the negative side of fighting. I betcha Wayne would change his mind if he had to get a titanium plate surgically implanted into his face. They both now own NHL teams, so they are not players, they are owners. As such, they do not care about unskilled goons beating the shit out of each other. They profit from it after all. Kinda reminds me of the movie "Gladiator".
Correct, you are not alone. But, just because many people like fisticuffs does not make them right. I am sure few people who attend cockfights walk out because an animal died. |
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JPG
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:05 am Post subject: |
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Plus, the most unskilled (in a hockey sense) fighters still make more in a year than most of us will in 4-5 years, assuming a low salary is around 300,000-350,000.
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The Evil Twin
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Correct, you are not alone. But, just because many people like fisticuffs does not make them right. I am sure few people who attend cockfights walk out because an animal died |
Good point Cartman. I'm sure if we held public beheadings and threw people to starving lions, people would pay big bucks to watch as well. That doesn't make it right though. 
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JPG
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:24 am Post subject: |
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Well, I wouldn't be terribly opposed if those people willingly participated and were paid hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dallars to do it. The job of a hockey enforcer is not analagous to an unsafe workplace.
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al-Qa'bong
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Tentative in his fighting? WTF!? Basically, NHL teams hire players to fight in large part because it is entertaining. |
I dunno, we used to have some crazy brawls back in the bush leagues, and we did it for free.
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The Evil Twin
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Well, I wouldn't be terribly opposed if those people willingly participated and were paid hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dallars to do it. The job of a hockey enforcer is not analagous to an unsafe workplace.
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Well I don't really care if millionaires Donald Brashear and Chris Simon want to beat the fuck out of each other while a bloodthirsty crowd cheers. I do worry though about the message this sends to society (especially young boys) and what it says about us as a society. As a former jock, I observed that "manhood" was often equated in team sports with how agressive or violent you were. While I never played organized hockey, I went to enough junior games as a kid to see that even parents often stood up and cheered when little Johnny got into a scrap. This would often be accompanied by insults towards the opposing players such as "faggot", "girly boy" etc. Again, as was discussed in other threads both here and on babble, while our society equates "manliness" in sport with violence and aggression, those who were more passive were equated with being female or homosexual.
So yeah, while I see your point about millionaire enforcers, the roots and reasons for this behaviour (and why we enjoy it) go a lot deeper.
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Norse of 60
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:24 am Post subject: |
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al-Qa'bong
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Hockey violent?
It has nothing on cricket
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skeptikool
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| al-Qa'bong wrote: | Hockey violent?
It has nothing on cricket |
With cricket, it's an oddity - not so with ice hockey:
excerpt:
| Quote: | He returned to the lineup on Dec. 2 and has had five fights since removing his face shield before the all-star break in February.
"The surgeries he's had, he's got basically a titanium face," Flyers general manager Paul Holmgren said. "He's been a little tentative in his fighting when he has fought. It's got to take time, I think." |
I have to wonder at the mentality of those who pay to watch this crap. All that's necessary to stop it, is for all to rise from their seats and demand the refund of their tickets. What a hell of a lesson for their kids. |
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al-Qa'bong
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | All that's necessary to stop it, is for all to rise from their seats and demand the refund of their tickets. |
But the fans like to see fights. Take fighting out of the NHL and watch ticket sales plummet.
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Hephaestion
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But the fans like to see fights. Take fighting out of the NHL and watch ticket sales plummet. |
I know what you mean. Ticket sales for the circus have been waaaaaay down, ever since they got rid of the gladiators.
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JPG
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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I do wonder if doing away with fighting would hurt the efforts to build the fan base in the US. No matter, we should not allow outside forces and non-fans to police conduct in the NHL. The law should stay out of it, and non-fans should not be telling fans what they should be watching for.
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Hephaestion
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | No matter, we should not allow outside forces and non-fans to police conduct in the NHL. The law should stay out of it, and non-fans should not be telling fans what they should be watching for. |
I'm sorry, but that is simply preposterous. Assault is assault, whether it occurs during a "game" or not.
And FYI, I *am* a hockey fan. I just don't see a hell of a lot of HOCKEY going on any more, ever since Fred Shero and his gang of two-bit thugs demonstrated that it was possible to mug your way to a Stanley Cup win.
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Cartman
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | With cricket, it's an oddity - not so with ice hockey: |
And to think, this happened in a sport where they break for tea. |
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JPG
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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I wasn't referring to *you* Heph. Touche about Shero though, my dad tells me that team should have all been in jail.
But is boxing assault? Or ultimate fighting?
I just like to see a good brawl..is that too much to ask? It's not the be all and end all in terms of the entertainment value of hockey, it just adds to it.
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JPG
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Cartman wrote: | | Quote: | | With cricket, it's an oddity - not so with ice hockey: |
And to think, this happened in a sport where they break for tea. |
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Norse of 60
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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JPG
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Norse of 60 wrote: | | JPG wrote: | | I do wonder if doing away with fighting would hurt the efforts to build the fan base in the US. |
I don't think it matters either way. Plus, there is more fighting in baseball including bench brawls which the NHL hasn't seen in, oh, a decade or so. Even fighting in basketball. I don't think the fighting is deterring fans in the US people simply aren't interested in hockey any more than most Canadians are interested in NASCAR. |
But look at all the southern US teams that have stayed around for almost two decades now. Sure they have financial difficulties, but they haven't folded. Not even Pheonix, clearly the worst of the bunch in terms of economic viability. Plus, many of the nothern teams are just as popular as their Canadian counterparts. NYR, Chicago, Detroit, NJ, Minneasota, Philly...
The difference is that in Canada hockey is at the top of the list.
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Cartman
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| I think it prevents some people from coming, but my understanding is that they market hockey in the South as Friday Night Fight Nights. Not in the NHL of course. |
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Tehanu
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Well, this fellow feels it's time for a crackdown. But only on bare-knuckle fighting, it seems. So a little crackdown. A crackdown-lite.
[/quote] | Quote: | What common sense and sportsmanship could not accomplish, broken bones and career-ending concussions just might.
Devastating injuries caused by punches and bare-knuckle fighting have become the driving force for senior NHL personnel, specifically the league's chief disciplinarian Colin Campbell, to finally call for an examination of the role and effect of fighting in the NHL.
Well, amen.
After witnessing the punishing blows over the past week that hospitalized two NHL players, one by a gloved punch and one in a fight, Campbell said yesterday he believes the league must now take a fresh look at the issue. |
Oh, and this ...
| Quote: | The strident and aggressive voices of the pro-fighting crowd, you see, have always shouted down anyone who decries violence in the game, portraying those who might question the need for fighting in hockey as either cowardly or overtly feminine.
No one, however, can portray Campbell in that way. He played in the NHL for years as a hardnosed, undersized defenceman, and participated in his share of fights. |
... is just plain offensive. |
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Cartman
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| They basically have no fighting in CIS, so I think it could be eliminated with stricter regulations. |
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Norse of 60
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Hephaestion
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But is boxing assault? Or ultimate fighting? |
Are you serious? Quite clearly, they are. But then, they are *intended* to be. Hockey is not.
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skeptikool
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| I returned to that "cricket" link - and the comments. I found nothing to suggest that the alleged murder had anything to do with the game of cricket. No motive was, in fact, mentioned or whether anyone was being held or accused in the death. |
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Hephaestion
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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CBC Radio was quoting someone connected with the team this morning as saying they believed the murder might have something to do with "gambling interests". So I guess if that's true, you could say the game *was* involved in a fairly important manner (assuming the gambling had something to do with Pakistan's recent loss, that is.)
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5 minutes to midnight
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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You can certainly be much tougher when it comes to the mugging/assualt stuff, but I'm not sure if taking fighting out of the game, or even keeping the instigator penalty, would be benificial. If large defensemen are allowed to clobber star players like this (warning, graphic video) the check is deemed legal (IIRC, Lindros recieved no suspension or penalty), what is one supposed to do? It's not always that easy to prove attempt to injure in cases such as this one. I don't want to see that kind of headhunting in the game.
I don't see it happening anyways, considering the vast majority of hockey players are not only okay with, but openly want fighting in the game.
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Cartman
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, I was warned. And to think, both Lindros brothers have sustained brutal hits to the head. |
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al-Qa'bong
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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Not in fights.
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skeptikool
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Hephaestion wrote: | | CBC Radio was quoting someone connected with the team this morning as saying they believed the murder might have something to do with "gambling interests". So I guess if that's true, you could say the game *was* involved in a fairly important manner (assuming the gambling had something to do with Pakistan's recent loss, that is.) |
If found to be true, how very sad since it will have tarnished not only the gentlemanly game of cricket, but will have shown gambling in a bad light, also.
I doubt that "Kill the umpire!" is frequently heard at these games. |
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Cartman
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| al-Qa'bong wrote: | | Not in fights. |
True enough, but others have been hurt in fights. I say take out the charging/boarding as well. At some point, lawyers are going to be successful in defending players who get hurt on the ice, and then there will be real trouble. |
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Norse of 60
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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Cartman
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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The only reason fewer games are missed due to fights is because there are far fewer fights than high sticking incidents, weird mishaps and brutal hits like Lindros dished out. Just because fewer games are missed is not a very good justification for fighting. Heck, fewer work days are lost from shooting people than are due to say, the flu.
According to the rules and the way they are interpreted, I would agree that the Lindros hit was clean. Having watched the video though, he did not seem terribly concerned about the puck or scoring a goal. His intent was to slam his opponent into next year. IMO, that is dirty and it should be eliminated from the sport. Sure, some people will watch and cheer fighting and blows like this, but many people will find all kinds of grotesque behaviour interesting to watch. That does not make it right IMO.
I think that hockey is very vulnerable right now. Apart from the NHL, most people who work in the sport are volunteers. If they start worrying about lawsuits because leagues do not get a handle on this stuff, hockey could really suffer. As I said above, sooner or later the lawyers will set a precedent and run with it. |
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al-Qa'bong
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:52 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | With cricket, it's an oddity - not so with ice hockey |
We call it "hockey" in Canada.
| Quote: | | Having watched the video though, he did not seem terribly concerned about the puck or scoring a goal. |
You don't say?
Lindros was playing the man. It's part of hockey. If you don't like it, watch cricket.
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JPG
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| Hephaestion wrote: | | Quote: | | But is boxing assault? Or ultimate fighting? |
Are you serious? Quite clearly, they are. But then, they are *intended* to be. Hockey is not. |
But fighting has been a given in hockey for generations.
| Quote: | You can certainly be much tougher when it comes to the mugging/assualt stuff, but I'm not sure if taking fighting out of the game, or even keeping the instigator penalty, would be benificial. If large defensemen are allowed to clobber star players like this (warning, graphic video) the check is deemed legal (IIRC, Lindros recieved no suspension or penalty), what is one supposed to do? It's not always that easy to prove attempt to injure in cases such as this one. I don't want to see that kind of headhunting in the game.
I don't see it happening anyways, considering the vast majority of hockey players are not only okay with, but openly want fighting in the game. |
'Twas a perfectly legit hit. At most it was bad judgement on the part of Lindros.
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JPG
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:34 am Post subject: |
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Poll of 200+ players just reported on TSN.
97% support status quo 5 for fighting.
2% support 10 for fighting.
1% supports 20 for fighting.
0% game misconduct.
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Hephaestion
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:43 am Post subject: |
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... and what percentage of those players would not survive in the league if it were based on their prowess at hockey, rather than slugging?
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JPG
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| Hephaestion wrote: | | ... and what percentage of those players would not survive in the league if it were based on their prowess at hockey, rather than slugging? |
I would hope it was done representatively. Keep in mind though..true enforcers are not as common in the league these days. And you won't find any teams like the Flyers of the '70s.
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Hephaestion
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:02 am Post subject: |
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| JPG wrote: | | But fighting has been a given in hockey for generations. |
So have penalties, and game misconducts, and suspensions. There is a difference -- a BIG one -- between "hitting" and "fighting". Hockey is a rough sport, and if you can't take a clean, hard check, perhaps you shouldn't play it. That is not the same thing at all as fighting, however.
| Quote: | | I would hope it was done representatively. |
Why? Why should someone be entitled to play with the best in the game if they have to rely on being a goon to get by?
The two reason they have been able to so far are expansion, and bloodthirsty fans. There are not *enough* quality players to dress teams for all the expansion teams, so they flesh it out with goons and substandard players, and appeal to the mob mentality, lowest common denominator fan who goes mainly in hopes there will be a brawl right in front of him on the ice. The same type of crowd who would'a been right at home watching the Roman circuses.
But what the hell, as long as the owners are making money, and the players (and goons) are collecting a paycheque, and The Mob is happy, why rock the boat, eh?
It's a fukkin' shame what damage Fred Shero wrought to what is really a beautiful game.
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JPG
Pro-choice freedom-monger
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Why? Why should someone be entitled to play with the best in the game if they have to rely on being a goon to get by?
The two reason they have been able to so far are expansion, and bloodthirsty fans. There are not *enough* quality players to dress teams for all the expansion teams, so they flesh it out with goons and substandard players, and appeal to the mob mentality, lowest common denominator fan who goes mainly in hopes there will be a brawl right in front of him on the ice. The same type of crowd who would'a been right at home watching the Roman circuses.
But what the hell, as long as the owners are making money, and the players (and goons) are collecting a paycheque, and The Mob is happy, why rock the boat, eh?
It's a fukkin' shame what damage Fred Shero wrought to what is really a beautiful game.
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Like I said, those are a dying breed. I would say the biggest goon in the league, at least last year, was Sean Avery. He's still a good hockey player. So is Darcy Tucker. He's no Sidney Crosby, but he has a crapload of heart and skill. And if he wanted to, he could make Crosby eat glass with a clean hit. Someone's gotta protect Crosby.
If the players want it, and the fans want it, where's the harm?
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JPG
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:16 am Post subject: |
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I still enjoy European hockey and women's hockey, at least form what I see in international tournaments. I enjoy the skill aspect. But the hitting and the fighting adds a second element that, in the proper proportions, only enhances the game.
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al-Qa'bong
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | It's a fukkin' shame what damage Fred Shero wrought to what is really a beautiful game.
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Have you actually seen or played in a game in the last 30 years?
The Habs of the late 1970s put the brief age of goon hockey on ice, and it hasn't come back in any substantial manner ever since.
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Hephaestion
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:49 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I have, and I simply don't agree with you. Best hockey game I have ever seen -- bar none -- was the time the Habs played the Red Army. No gooning, end-to-end rushes, spectacular shooting and incredible saves. And yes, hits, but clean hits.
The only time the NHL approaches that kind of hockey is in the play-offs, when they stop the brawling and actually concentrate on trying to play hockey. *Then* it's (sometimes) worth watching.
But you can't tell me that the average skill level has not deteriorated as a result of expansion. It has, and a lot of players are in the league today who wouldn't make it on skill levels alone.
But what the hell, like I said, I've long ago quit watching most of the NHL season. as I said. I'd rather play a game with some friends, or watch a local team playing for the fun of it.
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al-Qa'bong
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | But you can't tell me that the average skill level has not deteriorated as a result of expansion. It has, and a lot of players are in the league today who wouldn't make it on skill levels alone.
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Expansion and goon hockey are two different issues.
As for brawling, there used to be a lot of it in the Original Six. There's next to none now. Baseball, basketball and the CFL are far worse. The most violent plays in sports are in baseball; ask any shortstop who's been spiked or a batter who's had a high hard one aimed at his head.
That Habs-CCCP game in '75 is overrated. I found it rather boring. Russia had three shots in that game, and scored on all of them.
As for the death of end-to-end rushes, thank defensive coaching systems for that one.
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No Yards
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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NHL hockey is crap ... give me Olympic hockey, where the skilled players show up and the goons are sitting at home watching, any day.
Hockey, the only major sport that makes room for fighting, by far leads all other sports in cases of on-field incidents ending up in as assault charges in the courts, so don't go telling me that fighting prevents more serious incidents ... that's complete BS.
"Violence begats peace"; where have I heard that one before?
Fight: eject, suspend player, fine player and team for the first offense. Double and redouble the suspensions and fines for all subsequent offenses ... can't control your players? Team is kicked out of the league.
I'd like to be a hockey fan; Too bad they only televise the game every 4 years. |
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al-Qa'bong
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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...and in breaking news from the world of sport...
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F.Codger
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| JPG wrote: | Poll of 200+ players just reported on TSN.
97% support status quo 5 for fighting.
2% support 10 for fighting.
1% supports 20 for fighting.
0% game misconduct. |
A) Hockey players don't like change. They tend to react negatively to the prospect of the unknown.
B) The players know that doing away with fighting means a bunch of their teammates will be out of the league. The tough guys are often among the most popular players on the team. Nobody wants to see their friend out of work.
C) The players don't want to be seen as sissies. There's a lot of testosterone out there.
For me the bottom line is this: hockey fights are usually boring, like 99 per cent of the time. They serve no real purpose -- please spare me the release-valve stuff and the nonsense about preventing sticks or other cheap shots; there are better ways of dealing with that.
That said, you won't forever outlaw fighting. Competitive men, playing a physical sport, will boil over.
What I have always hated are the singular goons, who get three minutes of ice time a game and whose primary purpose is to fight other goons. They aren't as prevalent in the "new" NHL, but they're still there. Todd Fedoruk was one, albeit a bad one. He should learn a trade, or get his real estate license or something. He shouldn't get back on the ice. (Instead, he's suggesting that fighters wear padded gloves, like the ultimate fighting meatheads.  ) I have no problem with guys getting five minutes for fighting. But players who are repeatedly getting fighting majors should get suspended after, oh I dunno, 5 fights in a season.
But you can still have tough hockey without fights. There's nothing wrong with a good defensive, physical game.
Oh, and Q'abong? Don't exaggerate. The Soviets got 13 shots that night.
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Hephaestion
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| JPG wrote: | | I still enjoy European hockey and women's hockey |
I wonder why "European hockey" and women's hockey don't have the same prevalence of brawling as US-Canadian style hockey... I guess most US-Canadian men must just be so stunted, so un-evolved, such slaves to their hormones, that they are unable to control those waves of testosterone that wash over them in their oh-so-manly on-ice displays, eh?
Gee, I thought it was 'chicks' who were supposed to be the 'emotional' ones...
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