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JPG
Pro-choice freedom-monger
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2569
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 Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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I noted above that countries like Venezuela have better c&b's than we do. Actually, we have pretty much no c&b's, 'cept the courts. That's why I'm dissapointed they're being bypassed.
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Rufus Polson wrote: | | Anyone here able to think of any laws passed that they wish we had the power to do that to? |
The Alliance Party proposed a law allowing for a national referendum if enough voters signed a petition on a particular issue. When do we get to vote on changing Stockwell's first name to "Doris?"
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| JPG wrote: | | I noted above that countries like Venezuela have better c&b's than we do. Actually, we have pretty much no c&b's, 'cept the courts. That's why I'm dissapointed they're being bypassed. |
There is actually a very good historical reason why we don't have checks and balances. Checks and balances are the hallmark of republican systems, with a sharp definition between the executive, legislative and judicial branches of government. The Westminister Model of parliamentary government uses "responsibility" as opposed to checks and balances.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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JPG
Pro-choice freedom-monger
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2569
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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TS,
| Quote: | | There is actually a very good historical reason why we don't have checks and balances. Checks and balances are the hallmark of republican systems, with a sharp definition between the executive, legislative and judicial branches of government. The Westminister Model of parliamentary government uses "responsibility" as opposed to checks and balances. |
Well ya I'm aware of all that.  What I meant was that I do have republican leanings. (And I said 'republican' not 'Republican').
Cheers
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We are the youth, we'll take your fascism away... |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| JPG wrote: | Well ya I'm aware of all that. What I meant was that I do have republican leanings. (And I said 'republican' not 'Republican').
Cheers |
Oh, I would be thrilled to have a republic. I just don't look forward to the amount of constitutional wrangling that would come with the transition.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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elmateo
sleepy.
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 4978
Location: socialist corner, ottawa
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| Republics have their own problems. Not completely sure they produce 'better' results. |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:57 am Post subject: |
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I would still rather not have to swear allegiance to a queen living in another country to get a government job.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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elmateo
sleepy.
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 4978
Location: socialist corner, ottawa
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:02 am Post subject: |
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I don't really have that much trouble with the symbolism of that. I know the Queen is really powerless, and if really comes down to it the precedent is set to have the head removed  . A president who represents the state also has 'legitimacy' to exercise political power. I have a little bit of trouble with that symbolism. In the states, to criticize the president is to criticize the state. Not a great setup symbolically. And since that is really what the debate over the Queen is all about - symbols. Ill deal with QEII. Maybe we can talk again when Charles reigns. |
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Tehanu
More or less, more or less
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 17646
Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| TS. wrote: | | I would still rather not have to swear allegiance to a queen living in another country to get a government job. |
Damn you, TS! Now I have Bowie's "Rebel, rebel" playing in my head. Curses!  |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| Tehanu wrote: | | TS. wrote: | | I would still rather not have to swear allegiance to a queen living in another country to get a government job. |
Damn you, TS! Now I have Bowie's "Rebel, rebel" playing in my head. Curses! |
MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! My true mission here is complete!
*vanishes in a puff of black smoke*
ETA: Heh. That was my 3000th post.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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Tehanu
More or less, more or less
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 17646
Location: Seceded from the Ford Nation
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:17 am Post subject: |
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And what a 3,000th post it was ...  |
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JPG
Pro-choice freedom-monger
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2569
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Oh, I would be thrilled to have a republic. I just don't look forward to the amount of constitutional wrangling that would come with the transition. |
Indeed. Considering what happens any time someone even mentions the constitution in Canada, I fear I will never see it in my lifetime.
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Rufus Polson
Purple Library Guy
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 3483
Location: SFU and/or the college of Riddlemastery at Caithnard
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| TS. wrote: | | I would still rather not have to swear allegiance to a queen living in another country to get a government job. |
So, you're saying you think we should have our own queen? I could go for that. |
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Stephen Gordon
Dismal scientist
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 449
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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Double-post.
Last edited by Stephen Gordon on Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Stephen Gordon
Dismal scientist
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 449
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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Hear, hear. A modest suggestion: name Marie-Éden - Michaëlle Jean's daughter - Queen of Canada. Until the time she becomes of age, her mother can serve as Regent.
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Rufus Polson wrote: | | TS. wrote: | | I would still rather not have to swear allegiance to a queen living in another country to get a government job. |
So, you're saying you think we should have our own queen? I could go for that. |
Well, it would be better than the current situation. But I don't think we need a monarchy. It is a throwback to a time when the people had no rights and a very small group of people governed in their own kleptocratic interests. We would do much better to have an elected Canadian figurehead as our head of state as opposed to a hereditarily selected British aristocrat.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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Stephen Gordon
Dismal scientist
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 449
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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An election would just confuse things: it'd give the head of state her own source of political legitimacy, and she might be more inclined to use her veto power over legislation.
Make it hereditary and Canadian. Look at Marie-Éden: she's adorable. What else do we need in a Head of State? |
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Rufus Polson
Purple Library Guy
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 3483
Location: SFU and/or the college of Riddlemastery at Caithnard
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| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| She is adorable, utterly, that's for sure. |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| Stephen Gordon wrote: | An election would just confuse things: it'd give the head of state her own source of political legitimacy, and she might be more inclined to use her veto power over legislation.
Make it hereditary and Canadian. Look at Marie-Éden: she's adorable. What else do we need in a Head of State? |
How about someone who wouldn't become a hereditary aristocrat? Also, there are many countries in which the President is elected and theoretically holds considerable power but refrains from using it. Italy and Israel come to mind as examples.
Vive la Republique!
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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Stephen Gordon
Dismal scientist
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 449
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| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:42 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, but they always elect ugly people. Look at that face! We'll have photogenic royalty for generations!
Okay, sure, there'll come a time when they all look like dyspeptic horses. Let future generations worry about it then. |
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TS.
Delicious schadenfreude
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14585
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:46 am Post subject: |
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SG, you kill me! 
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson |
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thwap
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4564
Location: Hamilton
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| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:54 am Post subject: |
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I ain't crazy about her mother. Accepts an office from the guy who raped her homeland. Then never criticized him. Maybe she came from the "better part" of Haiti.
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Man! I hate them fancy-lads! |
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Stephen Gordon
Dismal scientist
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 449
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| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| Well, her daughter's adopted (also from Haiti). Fresh start and all. |
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thwap
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4564
Location: Hamilton
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| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:48 am Post subject: |
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Well then, ... no "bad genes" ... just wonder about the values she received growing up.
Seriously, ... what we did in Haiti was disgusting. absolutely disgusting.
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Man! I hate them fancy-lads! |
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JPG
Pro-choice freedom-monger
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2569
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| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:23 am Post subject: |
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I think, ideally, we would eventually overhaul the entire constitution into a republic. President with or without real power, I could go either way. I'm thinking with real power though, as I don't neccesarily like the idea of a fused exec/leg.
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We are the youth, we'll take your fascism away... |
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al-Qa'bong
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 6048
Location: A monistic vulgarity in which nobility and wisdom have been exchanged for a pale belief in progress
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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Chavez Remains Far from a Dictator
| Quote: | On the surface, it seems to Chavez’s critics that he is finally doing what they have long predicted — creating a totalitarian state in the image of his mentor, Fidel Castro. But the situation in Venezuela is a little more complex than what many in the media and the establishment make it out to be. Take, for example, Chavez’s decision not to renew the license of RCTV television network when it expires in May. At first blush, this would certainly seem to be reason for alarm — a government shutting down a television station because it doesn’t like its editorial bent.
But RCTV is not exactly your average television station. In April 2002, it promoted and participated in a coup against Chavez in which a democratically elected president was overthrown by military rebels and disappeared for two days until large street protests and a counter-coup returned him to power. For two days before the coup, RCTV suspended all regular programming and commercials and ran blanket coverage of a general strike aimed at ousting Chavez. Then it ran non-stop ads encouraging people to attend a massive anti-Chavez march on April 11, 2002, and provided wall-to-wall coverage of the event itself with nary a pro-Chavez voice in sight.
When the protest ended in violence and military rebels overthrew the president, RCTV along with other networks imposed a news blackout banning all coverage of pro-Chavez demonstrators in the streets demanding his return. Andres Izarra, a news director at RCTV, was given the order by superiors: no Chavistas on the screen. He quit in disgust and later joined the Chavez government.
On April 13, 2002, after the coup-installed president Pedro Carmona eliminated the Supreme Court and the National Assembly and nullified the constitution, media barons, including RCTV’s main owner, Marcel Granier, met with Carmona in the presidential palace and, according to reports, pledged their support to his regime. While the streets of Caracas literally burned with rage over Chavez’s ouster, the television networks ran Hollywood movies like Pretty Woman.
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But no, media are never in the pocket of the wealthy elites. To say so would be kooky.
| Quote: | | Venezuela’s media, owned largely by the country’s wealthy elites, is arguably the most rabidly anti-government media in the world. In the past, opposition figures have appeared on television openly calling for a coup against Chavez, who says he is leading a revolution on behalf of Venezuela’s majority poor. |
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"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But no, media are never in the pocket of the wealthy elites. To say so would be kooky |
Kinda makes you wonder why Canada's media-ownin' corporate elite overlords don't do the same thing. Endless pro-Harper ads on every channel, and NDP, Liberal or any other party's ads rejected.
Why do you suppose they don't? Some kind of inexplicable altruism? Or a few simple regulations, to keep us all from getting a good brainwashing?
It's unfortunate that Venezuela evidently gets to choose between a privately-owned partisan press and a state-controlled partisan press, but it's not exactly an insoluble problem.
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Dogbert
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 171
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Kinda makes you wonder why Canada's media-ownin' corporate elite overlords don't do the same thing. Endless pro-Harper ads on every channel, and NDP, Liberal or any other party's ads rejected.
Why do you suppose they don't? Some kind of inexplicable altruism? Or a few simple regulations, to keep us all from getting a good brainwashing? |
Or perhaps they can live with either party that's likely to be elected at the moment. I mean, sure, they'd prefer a cold-hearted Conservative that would lower taxes, brutalize criminals and rule us like a God (apologies, Sideshow Bob), but the Libs aren't exactly going to repo the yacht either. The NDP can just be marginalized, especially if they're crazy enough to actually speak the truth.
For a better example of how our enlightened, first world corporate media handles a real threat to corporate control, you might try the Regina Leader Post from the 40s when the CCF were poised to take power. They were filled with red-baiting to a scale that would make the Venezuelan media proud. If there was ever a Chavez-style socialist that was anywhere near power in Canada, I have little doubt that our well-regulated corporate media would become something very like Venezuela's. |
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sparqui
Dog tired
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 5154
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:53 am Post subject: |
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Not to mention that it was only one private broadcaster whose license wasn't renewed. Globovisión, Televen and Venevisión are still broadcasting.
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The government has based its denial of the license renewal on RCTV’s lack of cooperation with tax laws, its failure to pay fines issued by the telecommunications commission, CONATEL, over the past twenty years, and its refusal to abide by constitutional laws prohibiting incitation to political violence, indecency, obscenity and the distortion of facts and information. The public airwaves, as in the case of the United States, are regulated by government. Television and radio stations apply for licenses from the telecommunications commission and are granted those licenses based on conditional compliance with articulated regulations. When a station does not abide by the requirements, it generally is fined and warned, repeatedly, until compliance is assured. In the specific case of RCTV, the station and its owner, multi-millionaire Marcel Granier, have refused to comply with the law and have continued to abuse and violate the clear and concise regulations that are supposed to guarantee Venezuelan citizens their constitutional right to “true and accurate information” (Article 58 of the Constitution).
RCTV’s owner, Marcel Granier, played a key role in the April 2002 coup d’etat against President Chávez and has used his station to engage in an ongoing campaign of anti-Chávez propaganda and efforts to destabilize the nation through distorting and manipulating information to create panic, apathy, fear and violence in Venezuelan society. The station’s clear violations of the telecommunications regulations and the Constitutional guarantees that protect freedom of speech and access to true and accurate information provide sufficient reason to deny the renewal of its license to use the public airwaves. Unlike the editorial board of the Los Angeles Times (Fidel Chávez?, January 11, 2007) mistakenly claims, Chávez and his government are not “shutting down” the private media station. RCTV can continue to operate on the private airwaves, i.e. cable and satellite television. As would be the case in any country where law and order are respected, RCTV will not receive a renewal on its license to remain on the public airwaves because it repeatedly violated the law during more than a decade. |
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1933
And wouldn't it be nice to see more participatory democracy around here so that progressive voices and community views could finally be heard:
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Growing Movement of Community Radio in Venezuela
Monday, Dec 26, 2005
By: Sujatha Fernandes - ZNet
Four young people sit around a large table, writing furiously amid piles of notes, cans of soda, and scrunched up papers. They could be kids doing their homework or studying for exams. But these young women from the shantytowns, aged between 17 and 22 years, are preparing for their hour-long program, “Public Power,” on air in ten minutes on community radio station Radio Perola, 92.3FM, in the Caracas parish of Caricuao...
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http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1637
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | For a better example of how our enlightened, first world corporate media handles a real threat to corporate control, you might try the Regina Leader Post from the 40s when the CCF were poised to take power... |
I don't know how much "better" it is if we have to go back six decades to find it.
How about the very similar situation fifty years later, when the grandchild of the CCF, the NDP, were poised to take power in Ontario, the very hub of business and financial power in Canada. Did the MSM, which by that point was orders of magnitude larger and more influential than it was in the days of tube radios, get heavy handed and shut the NDP and their message down, thereby allowing the Liberal party to retain power?
I certainly don't remember that.
Or, if you want to go back to the prairies, circa 1940, how do you explain the fact that in 1944, four short years after your example, the CCF did in fact take power, and has kept it (through one name change) and has actually won the majority of elections in that province since? Where has the media been? Why didn't they shut down the CCF once and for all?
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5 minutes to midnight
Friendly co-dictator of the board
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 1193
Location: The Okanagan, British Columbia
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:12 am Post subject: |
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Well first of all, refering wayyyy back to a post I made about 3 weeks ago, when I said we need a SANE Chavez, I wasn't just refering to the law he passed. He is entirely allowed to do that, I just don't like the concept of centralizing power onto the head of state, like Harper unofficially has (rolleyes emoticon?). I'm also referening to his consistant taunting and provocation of GWB in order to whip his nation into a socialist revolution. That's just not my style.
Oh yes, I forgot to mention is downright creepy demeanor towards Condi. What the fuck?
Secondly, and I know I'm going to get shot for this one : If we want a system of checks and balances, why not just reform our senate?!
The senate should certainly have the ability to draft bills and motions and defeat motions, make recommendations, should be elected to say, a 6 year term, and should reflect the distribution of Canada's population. I mean, it's probably would involve a smaller constitutional overhaul than switching to a republican system or killing the senate all together.
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DSquared
aka Aristotleded24
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5570
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| Dogbert wrote: | | Quote: | Kinda makes you wonder why Canada's media-ownin' corporate elite overlords don't do the same thing. Endless pro-Harper ads on every channel, and NDP, Liberal or any other party's ads rejected.
Why do you suppose they don't? Some kind of inexplicable altruism? Or a few simple regulations, to keep us all from getting a good brainwashing? |
Or perhaps they can live with either party that's likely to be elected at the moment. I mean, sure, they'd prefer a cold-hearted Conservative that would lower taxes, brutalize criminals and rule us like a God (apologies, Sideshow Bob), but the Libs aren't exactly going to repo the yacht either. The NDP can just be marginalized, especially if they're crazy enough to actually speak the truth.
For a better example of how our enlightened, first world corporate media handles a real threat to corporate control, you might try the Regina Leader Post from the 40s when the CCF were poised to take power. They were filled with red-baiting to a scale that would make the Venezuelan media proud. If there was ever a Chavez-style socialist that was anywhere near power in Canada, I have little doubt that our well-regulated corporate media would become something very like Venezuela's. |
Even on the topic of media red-baiting, all you have to do is look to Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Both provinces have NDP provincial governments, and the red-baiting in the media is pretty bad, even though both governments are well to the right of where NDP governments typically govern.
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This is pre-eminently the time, to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself-Franklin Delano Roosevelt |
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Dogbert
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 171
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Ignoring for the moment the assertion that the corporate media have the God-like ability to kill any movement they don't like, the relatively subdued attacks from the corporate media may have something to do with the fact that the NDP in all the provinces you mentioned basically became the provincial liberal party, sooner or later. I went back 60 years because that era was when the CCF was actually running on a socialist platform. And as DSquared pointed out, it's not as though they've become "fair and balanced" since then, except in the Fox News sense. Sure, the rhetoric is toned down, they'll print any ad you pay for and the odd leftist letter to the editor, but they don't exactly have trouble getting their message across. |
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al-Qa'bong
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 6048
Location: A monistic vulgarity in which nobility and wisdom have been exchanged for a pale belief in progress
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | How about the very similar situation fifty years later, when the grandchild of the CCF, the NDP, were poised to take power in Ontario, the very hub of business and financial power in Canada. Did the MSM, which by that point was orders of magnitude larger and more influential than it was in the days of tube radios, get heavy handed and shut the NDP and their message down, thereby allowing the Liberal party to retain power?
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Try to control your wild-eyed paranoia for a sec and explain why the moneyed interests would consider the Ontario NDP a threat.
If you still insist that the dice aren't loaded, I have another question.
Think of any labour dispute throughout Canadian history. What the heck, throw in Western European and US history as well. In all that history, can you name one instance during a strike where the police marched into a corporate boardroom and cracked heads, or shot into an assembly of business executives?
Now ask yourself why you've never considered this possibility before.
_________________
"The purpose of government is to protect the weak from the powerful" Hammurabi
"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl
Last edited by al-Qa'bong on Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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leftcoastguy
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5977
Location: Leftcoast
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:21 am Post subject: |
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Bob Rae!
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Thinking is so overrated. |
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elmateo
sleepy.
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 4978
Location: socialist corner, ottawa
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| al-Qa'bong wrote: | | Quote: | How about the very similar situation fifty years later, when the grandchild of the CCF, the NDP, were poised to take power in Ontario, the very hub of business and financial power in Canada. Did the MSM, which by that point was orders of magnitude larger and more influential than it was in the days of tube radios, get heavy handed and shut the NDP and their message down, thereby allowing the Liberal party to retain power?
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Try to control your wild-eyed paranoia for a sec and explain why the moneyed interests would consider the Ontario NDP a threat.
If you still insist that the dice aren't loaded, I have another question.
Think of any labour dispute throughout Canadian history. What the heck, throw in Western European and US history as well. In all that history, can you name one instance during a strike where the police marched into a corporate boardroom and cracked heads, or shot into an assembly of business executives?
Now ask yourself why you've never considered this possibility before. |
What Magoo objects to is the idea that there is any power relation involved here, that is all. We all have the same power to do anything we want (which apparently is best expressed with 'voting' and 'consuming choice'), so anything can happen and the 'left' is just whining because it isn't the people's favourite. It clearly is a popularity contest, that is it. But there is no unequal use of coercive or consentual power goings on here. |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | We all have the same power to do anything we want (which apparently is best expressed with 'voting' and 'consuming choice'), so anything can happen and the 'left' is just whining because it isn't the people's favourite. |
Well, in a discussion of voting, I do believe that voting would be how one would express one's choices, yes. I hope that's not too controversial.
And as far as making one's own decisions, I'm going to assume that you don't vote Liberal and you don't vote Conservative. If that assumption is correct, then tell me: what, specifically, prevents other Canadians from doing the same as you?
I'll save you the typing: absolutely nothing. You can ladle the sarcasm on as thick as you like, but in the end, there's nothing preventing other Canadians from making up their own mind if you can, and deep down, I think you know this.
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Raos
volatilis vir
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 5472
Location: Petropolis
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| I bike as transportation, therefore since I made that choice, there's no undue influence for people to own and drive cars? I'm sure that some economically disadvantaged people in the US have managed to obtain healthcare at some point, therefore there's no obstruction to economically disadvantaged people obtaining health care? I'm failing to see the logic here. |
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Senor Magoo
He's got a big one
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 8700
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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What do you mean by "undue" influence?
And more importantly, what kind of bootstrappin' moral superiority allowed you to avoid being unduly influenced? And how is it that others couldn't do the same, if they wished to (as, presumably, you wished to)?
I'm not suggesting that big business doesn't act in its own interest. I'm not suggesting that big business doesn't care who gets elected.
I'm saying that nobody's trapped. You're not. I'm not. So then who, exactly, IS? And exactly how?
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voice of the damned
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 6146
Location: slandered, libeled
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| Senor Magoo wrote: | What do you mean by "undue" influence?
And more importantly, what kind of bootstrappin' moral superiority allowed you to avoid being unduly influenced? And how is it that others couldn't do the same, if they wished to (as, presumably, you wished to)?
I'm not suggesting that big business doesn't act in its own interest. I'm not suggesting that big business doesn't care who gets elected.
I'm saying that nobody's trapped. You're not. I'm not. So then who, exactly, IS? And exactly how? |
We could probably go some ways toward settling this argument by starting a thread on the forum, asking those EMers who own cars to come on and tell us their reasons for continuing to drive. But if none of them admit to being victims of "undue influence", what will we tell them? "Sorry to break it to you folks, but you've all been duped by corporate advertising"? A few of them might have something to say in response to that.
And sorry to report that I can't participate. Never even got my learner's. |
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5 minutes to midnight
Friendly co-dictator of the board
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 1193
Location: The Okanagan, British Columbia
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Uh. I drive because I can't really bike the 18km to town and back at will, especially at this time of year. And our public transit system is a bit of a joke.
Edmonton's really nice though. Don't bring my car there.
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al-Qa'bong
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 6048
Location: A monistic vulgarity in which nobility and wisdom have been exchanged for a pale belief in progress
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The atmosphere in Caracas is fervid. The vast shanty towns draping the hillside around the cosmopolitan centre bustle with workers' cooperatives, trade union meetings, marches and debates. The $18bn fund for social welfare set up by Chávez is already bearing fruit. Education, food distribution and primary healthcare programmes now cover the majority for the first time. Queues form outside medical centres filled with thousands of Cuban doctors dispensing care to a population whose health was of no value to those who sat atop Venezuela's immense wealth in the past.
Chávez, who regularly pops over to Havana to check on the health of Fidel Castro, is at the centre of a new Latin America which is determined to be nobody's backyard. Reliable US allies are now limited to death squad ridden Colombia, Peru and Mexico - and latterly then only by recourse to rigged elections. But Chávez's international ambitions are not confined to the Americas. He became a hero in the Arab world after withdrawing his ambassador from Tel Aviv in protest at the bombardment of Lebanon by US-armed Israeli forces last summer, and has pledged privately to halt oil exports to the US in the event of aggression against Iran. This all represents a challenge to US power which, if Bush was not sunk in the morass of Iraq, would be at the top of his action list...
...The mendacious propaganda that Chávez is a dictator and human rights abuser is being spread with increasing urgency by the Atlanticist right and their fellow travellers, such as leftie-turned-neocon Nick Cohen who told his London newspaper audience last week that Livingstone's relationship with Chávez was making him think of voting Tory. Chávez's decision not to renew an expired licence for an opposition television station involved in a coup attempt - there are plenty of others - is being portrayed as the beginning of the death of democracy. It's as if Country Life's diatribes against the fox hunting ban were taken as irrefutable proof of totalitarianism in Britain.
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These Orchestrated Attacks on Chávez are a Travesty
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lagatta
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 1042
Location: Montréal
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, that is an important article. I think we can and must be critical of Chavez as of anyone - far too cosy with the Iranian leadership, for one, and I don't mean defending the Iranian people against the imperialist war threat hanging over their heads.
But these attacks on Chavez are orchestrated and interested.
Many of us remember REAL dictatorships in South America.  and their supporters in the so-called "democratic" world.
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As to Michaëlle Jean - I know her; we studied together here and in Italy. She does come from the educated class, not the peasantry - the opposite would be most suprising - but her father was jailed and tortured by Duvalier and her family arrived as political refugees.
I don't agree with her choice to become GG, but it is her business. I liked her SO much as a journalist! |
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JPG
Pro-choice freedom-monger
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 2569
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | far too cosy with the Iranian leadership, for one, and I don't mean defending the Iranian people against the imperialist war threat hanging over their heads.
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That's my biggest qualm about him. The rule by decree thing..like I said I'm not crazy about it and wouldn't support it here, if he ran on that platform and it does expire then I guess it ain't so bad.
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Factotum
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 238
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| JPG wrote: | | The rule by decree thing . . . like I said I'm not crazy about it and wouldn't support it here, if he ran on that platform and it does expire then I guess it ain't so bad. |
Harper ran on a platform of calling a second vote on equal marriage.
If he had gotten a majority and was able to re-open the debate and repeal it, would people be saying "it ain't so bad"? |
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Jacob Two-Two
satori shinobi
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 533
Location: where they hung the jerk that invented work
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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No, but there's a reason. Not allowing homosexuals to marry makes them second-class citizens and violates their human rights.
Can you provide us with an example of Chavez doing something that does this? |
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Factotum
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 238
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Jacob Two-Two wrote: | No, but there's a reason. Not allowing homosexuals to marry makes them second-class citizens and violates their human rights.
Can you provide us with an example of Chavez doing something that does this? |
Just merely demonstrating that having the support of the electorate does not necessarily mean a policy "ain't so bad".
While your distinction between the two is very weak, we could say that ruling by decree violates people's right to due process in the formulation and execution of governmental policy.
And of course, there are the media laws, both new and old, that exist that also violate the human right to free speech . . . |
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al-Qa'bong
Fulltime enMasse Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 6048
Location: A monistic vulgarity in which nobility and wisdom have been exchanged for a pale belief in progress
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | While your distinction between the two is very weak, we could say that ruling by decree violates people's right to due process in the formulation and execution of governmental policy. |
In 1988, more Canadians voted against free trade than for it.
We have "free trade" as a result.
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"We can't all be Sam the Sham; some of us have to be Pharoahs" Larry, brother of Darrel, and his other brother Daryl |
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Jacob Two-Two
satori shinobi
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 533
Location: where they hung the jerk that invented work
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | While your distinction between the two is very weak, |
Is it? You seem to have a firm opinion about my conception of human rights. I wonder what it's based on? Oh right, nothing.
I expect you bring the same informative rigour to your criticisms of Chavez.
Edited to add: Oh what the heck, I'll engage you as if you were worth the trouble.
| Quote: | | Just merely demonstrating that having the support of the electorate does not necessarily mean a policy "ain't so bad". |
Absolutely, which is why I explained the justification for objecting to your hypothetical situation. I don't find the explanation for your objections as convincing.
In one case, we have a bigoted population segment trying to suppress a disadvantaged minority, in a move that the Supreme court has already deemed unconstitutional. That's why even an electoral victory based on this issue doesn't make it right.
In the other case, we have a disadvantaged majority voting to give temporary powers (powers that are not out of line with the ones our own ruling governments have naturally) to redress the imbalances that have favoured a wealthy minority, a move that is perfectly in line with the country's constitution.
See the difference?
Edited again: Ah, hell, I'll keep going.
| Quote: | | we could say that ruling by decree violates people's right to due process in the formulation and execution of governmental policy. |
You could say that, if you hadn't read this thread at all, where it's already been pointed out that the Venezuelan public can wipe any law off the books with a popular referendum, a process that the opposition would no doubt be using to great effect, if, in fact, anybody supported them. Canadians don't have this right, and I wish we did. Venezuelans can even kill those media laws you refer to if they so desire, assuming they even exist. I've read too many lies about Chavez to take that at face value. If they are real then they do sound troubling, and I'm sure they'll be defeated in a referendum someday soon. If only Canada had this kind of democracy. Dare to dream. |
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Rufus Polson
Purple Library Guy
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 3483
Location: SFU and/or the college of Riddlemastery at Caithnard
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:53 am Post subject: |
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Venezuela did really pass some laws with respect to media conduct recently. These laws are more or less the kind of stuff we and the US and pretty much everyone else already had. You know, not supposed to have obscenity on the kids' shows, not supposed to advocate criminal behaviour on the air, blah blah blah. Definitely not as obtrusive as, say, the American FCC as near as I can make out. But yes, they do limit the freedom of TV stations to act like complete dickheads in ways they didn't previously. Just, you know, not any more than anyone else does.
Incidentally, I've read that these "decrees" can not only be overturned by a people's referendum, the house can vote to get rid of them too. In this case it's pretty unlikely that they would because Chavez' party controls a massive majority. But still, in institutional terms these are hardly what I would think of as "decrees" or "ruling by decree" if parliament can overturn them. And of course like any other legislation they have to adhere to the Constitution, so the courts could strike them down if they violated any rights. |
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